January 22nd, 2007

Communism

Communism

President J. Reuben Clark once said:

I have been preaching against Communism for twenty years. I still warn you against it, and I tell you that we are drifting toward it more rapidly than some of us understand, and I tell you that when Communism comes the ownership of the things which are necessary to feed your families is going to be taken away from us. I tell you freedom of speech will go, freedom of the press will go, and freedom of religion will go. I have warned you against propaganda and hate. We are in the midst of the greatest exhibition of propaganda that the world has ever seen. Just do not believe all you read or hear. The elect are being deceived. (CR Oct 1941, emphasis mine)

In discussions with others I’ve become aware of the notion some people have that Communism died with the fall of the Soviet Union. People apparently feel that “the west” won, that freedom abounds in all nations, and such a repressive, tyrannical form of government could never exist today. I wonder how citizens of North Korea and China feel about that sentiment. I also find it interesting how many communist ex-KGB operatives (including Putin himself) apparently run the current Russian government.

Communism isn’t dead. It can’t be dead, for this reason:

Communism is Satan’s counterfeit for the Gospel plan, and…it is an avowed enemy of the God of this land. Communism is the greatest anti-Christ power in the world today and therefore the greatest menace not only to our peace but to our preservation as a free people. (Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference, October 1979)

Satan is still hard at work. He hasn’t given up. If Communism is his counterfeit, it’s one he continues to use. It may have gone “underground”, subtly working its way into other programs, policies, and principles, but it still exists. Satan is the master at operating under deceit and disguise:

[Satan] plans to destroy liberty and freedom—economic, political, and religious, and to set up in place thereof the greatest, most widespread, and most complete tyranny that has ever oppressed men. He is working under such perfect disguise that many do not recognize either him or his methods. There is no crime he would not commit, no debauchery he would not set up, no plague he would not send, no heart he would not break, no life he would not take, no soul he would not destroy. He comes as a thief in the night; he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Without their knowing it, the people are being urged down paths that lead only to destruction. Satan never before had so firm a grip on this generation as he has now…. (First Presidency Statement, Conference Report, Oct. 1942, pp. 13, 15, emphasis mine)

The following list of 45 points is from Cleon Skousen, in The Naked Communist. The list (which interestingly enough was put into the Congressional Record) shows the 45 goals to institute Communism. The informed reader will note, no doubt with some despondency, that our own nation has successfully implemented many of the goals:

  1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
  2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
  3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
  4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
  5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
  6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
  7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
  8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev’s promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
  9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
  10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
  11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
  12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
  13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
  14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
  15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
  16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
  17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
  18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
  19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
  20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
  21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
  22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to “eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.”
  23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. “Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.”
  24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press.
  25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
  26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.”
  27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a “religious crutch.”
  28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.”
  29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
  30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the “common man.”
  31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the “big picture.” Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
  32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture—education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
  33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
  34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
  35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
  36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
  37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
  38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
  39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
  40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
  41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
  42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use [“]united force[“] to solve economic, political or social problems.
  43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
  44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
  45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.

Though America died on October 17, 2006 [2] [3], the country is still operating (albeit in a degenerate fashion). I then propose that although the Iron Curtain fell and Communist governments were “toppled”, the principles, programs, and party members of Communism are still advancing its cause and implementing some of the 45 requirements listed above.

Read quotes about “communism” on Quoty

33 Responses to “Communism”

  1. Curtis
    January 22, 2007 at 12:01 pm #

    I wish you would separate the economic principle of communism from the totalitarian dictatorships that have been run by horrible power hungry men in the name of communism thru the years. True communism doesn’t even have a government!
    The communism decried by our leaders (though not by any leader wearing the mantle of the Presidency of the Church) is the system of terrible government seen under these wicked men.
    Skousen’s list is really kind of bizzare. For example, “Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.” Where did that come from?
    Many points on his list could be attributed to Capitalist oriented governments as well, or have nothing to do with what type of economic system is being employed in a country. Strange.

  2. J. Stapley
    January 22, 2007 at 12:16 pm #

    There is no question that Benson and Skousen were devout anti-communists (McKay and Clark for that matter). I think it is important to recognize the effect of the Cold War. If it were still so important today, don’t you think that the current church leaders would be talking about it?

    For example, you can go back to the the 1800’s and find the First presidency outlining Utah as the Kingdom of God and the United States as the kingdom of the Devil. Is it appropriate to project that on to today?

    Communism as practice by the Soviet’s wasn’t the only evil archetype, and there will yet be more.

  3. J. Stapley
    January 22, 2007 at 12:21 pm #

    …I also think that the Church’s raprochement with East German communists as being quite telling of the Church’s perspective on the matter.

  4. Doc
    January 22, 2007 at 12:27 pm #

    Curtis,
    You are conflating communism with anarchism, a faction that split from Marx rather early and whom early communists were rather fearful of. They predicted from the beginning that Communism was turn into a new kind of totalitarianism.

  5. lief
    January 22, 2007 at 12:56 pm #

    Connor,

    Normally I appreciate your principled right-libertarian analysis of the Bush administration’s actions, but this post on Communism is really hard to understand.

    Communism as collective socialism on the state level seems deader than ever. There are only a few decaying communist regimes left and there may only be a handful of serious communist-leaning revolutionary groups around the world today (Nepal, …?) , as opposed to the many that ebbed and flowed throughout the 20th century.

    If you are talking about socialism as a political philosophy, it is alive and well and probably will be for a long time since it has worked well in many countries (esp. the Nordic countries, which consistently have a higher standard of living than the U.S.)

    If you want to fight socialism in the U.S., that’s standard conservative stuff I guess, but it would be wildly inaccurate to call it communism.

    Skousen’s 45 points are almost entertaining in the way they capture an earlier era in reactionary politics. The fact that a different course of action was actually followed to great success (i.e. the compromising on some points while remaining inflexible on others realpolitik of Nixon – Reagan) should already discredit these points. Besides, they mostly have to do with foreign policy vis-a-vis the Soviet Union in ways that are completely non-specific to communism. Wouldn’t the same points apply to deal with a well-armed non-communist Islamic rival country?

  6. Curtis
    January 22, 2007 at 1:16 pm #

    Think again Doc,
    Check out the first sentence from wikipedia on the subject.

    “Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization, based upon common ownership of the means of production.”

    Note the term, “stateless”. In its classic form, it is indeed stateless. True communism remains theoretical as it has never been realized.

  7. Rob Osborn
    January 22, 2007 at 2:09 pm #

    Connor,

    I have to hand it to you, this is crazy hair brained stuff! I just do not see communism being established in this country. Almost every one of those 45 points are up in the night topics as they relate to America. Seems to me that there are a few certain people running around wishing so much that communism is truly trying to take over this country that they come up with every trick in the book to try to convince the rest of us. The problem is though- We as LDS people just aren’t convinced! Our current prophets instaed warn us of other issues that are far more important like taking care of the family and resisting temptation. You would think that if we are so cleavorously being taken over by communistic forces, our current prophet would say something about it. Since he has been in though, I cannot recall a single time that he warned us of secret communistic combinations in our government.

    Everyone knows that Ezra taft Benson was a John-Bircher member and was part of that whole cold war propaganda machine. Not saying that the John Birch society isn’t good, it;s just that they and other groups like them are always on some secret conspiracy agenda, of which most have turned out to be false.

  8. Connor
    January 22, 2007 at 2:38 pm #

    Curtis,

    True communism may not “have a government”, but its principles and programs have been found in political parties (whether taking the name of a communist party or not) and governments.

    Are you really saying that communism has not been decried by a prophet? Also, does it need to be named as such in order to be mentioned or described by a prophet? If communism is Satan’s plan, as Pres. Benson said, would it not cover a broader range than you seem to paint?

    J,

    If it were still so important today, don’t you think that the current church leaders would be talking about it?

    This is exactly my point. It is being described and opposed today, though such principles have become so “underground” that they cannot be “decried” as communist in nature, since they have taken a different, disguised form and origin. When Pres. Hinckley stands at the pulpit and says:

    The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.

    …then I believe he is telling those who have ears to hear that since the Book of Mormon was written for our day, these things are to be witnessed in our own society and government. Sure, it may not be with the same transparency and ferocity as Pres. Benson, but it is relevant and direct nonetheless.

    There are myriad reasons why the Prophets may not be talking about such things as openly as before. Perhaps we have been so slow to listen that they aren’t allowed to speak of it anymore (such as happened to Nephi and Mormon). Perhaps the focus has been shifted so strongly to personal worthiness and family integrity because of how careful the Prophet might have to be when denouncing certain governments or actions. Perhaps because we are a global organization, the Prophet must be more sensitive to just what is said over the pulpit so that governments throughout the world remain friendly to our Church and keep their nation’s doors open to missionaries, since preaching the gospel and preparing God’s children for the Second Coming is far more important and productive than openly calling out a certain policy or government practice that is evil. Just spouting out ideas, I’m not saying I strongly believe any of them, but they’re worth pondering before assuming that Communism and its ideals are dead and gone since the Prophet doesn’t say a word about it.

    For example, you can go back to the the 1800’s and find the First presidency outlining Utah as the Kingdom of God and the United States as the kingdom of the Devil. Is it appropriate to project that on to today?

    No, but those statements and sentiments were reversed by later Church leaders in declaring the divine nature of the Constitution and God’s hand in establishing this nation. Have Pres. McKay’s, Clark’s, or Benson’s warnings ever been reversed by successive Church leaders? Not that I’m aware. So does that mean they still stand?

    Communism as practice by the Soviet’s wasn’t the only evil archetype, and there will yet be more.

    I agree with you completely.

    Rob,

    We as LDS people just aren’t convinced!

    So when the Book of Mormon warns about Gadianton Robbers dismantling and overthrowing the government from within, do you somehow believe that “LDS people aren’t convinced” and that it could never happen in this country?

    You would think that if we are so cleavorously being taken over by communistic forces, our current prophet would say something about it.

    Perhaps he is, and we’re not listening? How many of us have our year’s supply? How many of us are regularly and frequently attending the temple? Perhaps the heavy emphasis on personal worthiness is directly related to the hard times that are soon to come?

    Since he has been in though, I cannot recall a single time that he warned us of secret communistic combinations in our government.

    Then here is your reading assignment.

    I’m not saying that the John Birch society isn’t good, it;s just that they and other groups like them are always on some secret conspiracy agenda, of which most have turned out to be false.

    So the Military Commissions Act, John Warner Defense Act, “PATRIOT” Act, Security and Prosperity Partnership, unconstitutional imprisonment of all “enemy combatants”, and every other documented action of our government which spits in the face of the Constitution is somehow, according to you, false? Please remember that Pres. Benson said of the Book of Mormon (which was written for our day) that “There is no conspiracy theory in the Book of Mormon—it is a conspiracy fact.” Don’t be so quick to deny the existence of conspiracy and corruption in our day. The facts stand in defiance to such ignorance.

  9. Steve M
    January 22, 2007 at 2:50 pm #

    “Red China” still has a lot of problems. That can’t be denied. Even with China’s many reforms since enacting the Open Door and Reform Policy in the late 1970’s, the Chinese Communist Party is still riddled with corruption, and the Chinese people still face threats to many of their basic freedoms. The rule of law has not yet been firmly established.

    But much good has come from pushing for peaceful coexistence and cooperation with the PRC (for instance, China has helped facilitate the 6-party talks to promote a non-nuclear North Korea). Many reforms have come, and many will continue to come as the PRC becomes a world power and its ties to the global community are strengthened.

    Poverty is still a big problem in China. But the quality of life in present-day China is light years ahead of where it was a few decades ago. I believe that international cooperation and diplomacy will help bring to pass many more much-needed political, social, and economic reforms in Communist China.

    And guess what? Despite all of our interactions with China over the past 30 years, I don’t think America is on the brink of a Communist takeover.

    So forgive me if I’m skeptical of the assertion that “acceptance of coexistence,” “Provid[ing[ American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination,” “Grant[ing] recognition of Red China,” or admitting “Red China to the U.N.” are paths to establishing Communism in the United States.

    Also, for what it’s worth, it seems that BYU and the Church have also adopted a policy of cooperation and relationship-building with “Red China.” The following quotes are from “Getting to Know China,” a speech given by Elder Dallin H. Oaks at BYU in 1991:

    Today I will speak of the past, the present, and the future of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the People’s Republic of China. I will give special and thankful emphasis to the part that Brigham Young University students and teachers are playing in that great drama.

    [I]n December 1978, President Jimmy Carter unexpectedly announced that the United States and China would exchange formal diplomatic recognition on the first day of 1979. With that announcement, a BYU trip to China became at least a theoretical possibility.

    The laws of some nations, such as China, presently forbid foreign missionaries. In other nations, the laws forbid any proselyting by Christians. Some of those barriers will drop when friendship is cultivated and trust is earned.

    In 1921 Elder David O. McKay went to China and dedicated that land for the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In his dedicatory prayer, he pleaded with our Father in Heaven to bless the land of China and its people. Notable among his petitions were these:

    “May peace and stability be established throughout this republic.”

    For example, of the fifteen men currently serving in the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, ten have traveled in China, most more than once. Several of us have had in-depth discussions with senior Chinese leaders.

    On their part, Chinese officials have chosen to take a close look at our Church and its leaders and members, here in the United States and in China. For example, Church leaders have met with three Chinese ambassadors to the United States, one of whom visited us in Salt Lake City. We have hosted many Chinese leaders, including the current premier, at BYU–Hawaii and the Polynesian Cultural Center. We have met with a former president of China, with a former vice premier and foreign minister. Scores of other leaders could be mentioned.

    We encourage our Chinese members to return to China.

  10. Steve M
    January 22, 2007 at 2:56 pm #

    Have Pres. McKay’s, Clark’s, or Benson’s warnings ever been reversed by successive Church leaders? Not that I’m aware. So does that mean they still stand?

    I don’t think the Church is known for formal reversals of past teachings or doctrines. We seem far more fond of just phasing out, neglecting, or replacing such teachings.

  11. Michael L. Mc Kee
    January 22, 2007 at 3:43 pm #

    The most arduous task I perform when I permit myself to become involved in these conversations is to refrain from utilizing the kind of language I daily used before December 2001 when I returned to activity in the Church after 30 years of being “of the world.” It is oftentimes most difficult for me to refrain from wanting to stoop to name calling, and letting some know just how ignorant they sound when they simply discount words of warning from those who feel a need to be ever vigilant, and concerned for the welfare of those they care about sincerely, and try to love in a way similar to that of the Savior. It troubles me greatly when I read the comments of those who cannot seem to consider the possibility that they may be among those who have been so craftily, and cunningly led down a path toward deception, and destruction.

    When I lived a sinful life it did not concern me that I may be consigned to that realm inhabited by Lucifer, and his followers when my earthly journey ended. It certainly did not weigh upon my conscience that those around me may do likewise. I knew that I, and them deserved what we were likely to receive considering our total disdain for anything good. Fortunately, for me at least, the Atonement of Jesus Christ may compensate for my deficiencies.

    It is certainly my hope that those who follow Connor’s posts will at least take the time to consider that he may be permitted to discern things around him that others may not recognize as being far more dangerous than we might like to believe. I am certain of the notion that his concerns are uncomfortably accurate, and based upon sound, irrefutable evidence currently attainable.

    “And I will come unto you, and if there be any among you that has a desire for freedom, yea, if there be even a spark of freedom remaining, behold I will stir up insurrections among you, even until those who have desires to usurp power and authority shall become extinct.”

    “Yea, behold I do not fear your power nor your authority, but it is my God whom I fear; and it is according to his commandments that I do take my sword to defend the cause of my country, and it is because of your iniquity that we have suffered so much loss.”

    “Behold it is time, yea, the time is now at hand, that except ye do bestir yourselves in the defence of your country and your little ones, the sword of justice doth hang over you; yea, and it shall fall upon you and visit you even to your utter destruction.” (Alma 60:27-29)

    “We would subject ourselves to the “yoke of bondage if it were requisite with the justice if God, or if he should command us so to do.”

    “But behold he doth not command us that we shall subject ourselves to our enemies, but that we should put our trust in him, and he will deliver us.” Alma 61:12-13)

    “The time has come that Christians must vote for honest men, and take their consistent ground in politics….God cannot sustain this free and blessed country, which we love and pray for, unless the Church will take right ground….Christians must do their duty to the country as a part of their duty to God. It seems sometimes as if the foundations of the nation are becoming rotten, and Christians seem to act as if they think God does not see what they do in politics. But I tell you He does see it, and He will bless or curse this nation, according to the course Christians take.” Reverend Charles G. Finney (1792-1875), Revivalist in the Second and Third Great Awakenings, College President

    While I am aware that some do not seem to take much stock in the sayings, and words of those who came before us, and others who take a stand, I shall nonetheless offer more utterances for you to ignore if that is your choice:

    “Is Socialism The United Order?” – Elder Marion G. Romney of the Council of the Twelve Apostles – April Conference 1966

    “As a nation, we’ve been showered with numerous blessings that have been a direct result of our Constitution. Unfortunately, many of us have forgotten that with the receipt of such blessings also comes responsibility. Probably our most important responsibility is to ensure the continuance of freedoms that we have received for our children and for our grandchildren. We cannot do that from the sidelines. Patriotism is not a spectator sport. We must become involved in the process of freedom”

    “Further, we need to understand the great principles of the founding documents. How can we “befriend….that law which is the constitutional law of the land” if we are not familiar with it and its genesis? We need to drink deeply at the wellspring of this great document.” (Elder L. Tom Perry – This address was given on 17 September 1987 in a special forum held in the Marriot Center.)

    For those who may not be aware of the date of the talk given be Elder Perry, it was on the 100th Anniversary of the Constitution of the United States of America.

    “The Seven Deadly Heresies” by Bruce R. McConkie, June 1, 1980

    “People Who Love Freedom Should Be Outraged At Recent Social Trends” Geoffrey Biddulph – This article was from Meridian Magazine in 2003 or 2005, but my printer cut off part of the line so I am unable to read it.

    I could go on with the list, but most are really not interested in getting too far out of their respective comfort zone long enough to consider the possibility that all is not well in Zion.

  12. Curtis
    January 22, 2007 at 4:16 pm #

    Connor,
    True communism may not “have a government”, but its principles and programs have been found in political parties (whether taking the name of a communist party or not) and governments.

    Many dictatorships have used capitalist principles in their horrible governments as well. It is not the economic principle that made their government bad, it was the men whose wicked hearts were allowed to flourish.

    Are you really saying that communism has not been decried by a prophet?

    Can you find a place where a president of the Church has decried communism after assuming the mantle?

  13. Curtis
    January 22, 2007 at 4:24 pm #

    Connor,
    Regarding the following quote by Pres. Hinckley,

    The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.

    I don’t see how you are connecting this to communism. Surely there is much wrong with our Church and our country and all is not well in Zion, but it is a serious stretch to say that the people’s of the book of Mormon were destroyed by communistic principles. It is rather the opposite, that unbridled and very corrupt capitilistic principles provided the background that secret combinations were able to thrive in. You would not be the first to connect communism to the Book of Mormon, but you would be the first one to successfully connect them. I don’t think that’s going to happen though. I think that the great secret combinations of the last days that seek to take away the freedom of all nations are more embodied in projects like the M.A.I. and its offspring (the Multi-lateral Agreement in Investment that is).

  14. Connor
    January 22, 2007 at 4:56 pm #

    Many dictatorships have used capitalist principles in their horrible governments as well. It is not the economic principle that made their government bad, it was the men whose wicked hearts were allowed to flourish.

    And Satan uses many good things to promote his own cause. For example, President Hinckley has said of technology:

    Going hand in hand with this increased temple activity is an increase in our family history work. The computer in its various ramifications is accelerating the work, and people are taking advantage of the new techniques being offered to them. How can one escape the conclusion that the Lord is in all of this? (“Welcome to Conference,” Ensign, Nov 1999, 4)

    Just as Satan uses technology to advance his own smut, so can wicked men use righteous principles to advance their own evil causes.

    Can you find a place where a president of the Church has decried communism after assuming the mantle?

    1. Do you require such a statement to explicitly mention communism and not merely describe it or make mention to its principles and ideals?
    2. Do you discount all apostolic testimony and teaching, simply because they were not the President of the Church? Are not Apostles also sustained as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators?

  15. Jeff
    January 23, 2007 at 12:07 am #

    Can you find a place where a president of the Church has decried communism after assuming the mantle?

    1. Do you require such a statement to explicitly mention communism and not merely describe it or make mention to its principles and ideals?

    2. Do you discount all apostolic testimony and teaching, simply because they were not the President of the Church? Are not Apostles also sustained as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators?

    In other words, no you cannot. Thanks for not answering the question, which is very relevant by the way.

    Good comments by Curtis and Steve M. I agree with them.

  16. Connor
    January 23, 2007 at 12:15 am #

    Thanks for not answering the question, which is very relevant by the way.

    I was simply waiting for my previous questions to be answered before attacking Curtis’. My question was answered with another question, so I just thought I’d do the same :)

    Shall we dance in more circles?

  17. R. Gary
    January 23, 2007 at 1:14 am #

    Curtis (#12) and Jeff (#15),

    Yes, I can “find a place where a president of the Church has decried communism after assuming the mantle.”

    David O. McKay assumed the mantle in 1951. During the October 1959 General Conference, he referred to Skousen’s book, The Naked Communist, and said, “I admonish everybody to read that excellent book.” He then quoted the following from the flyleaf: “The conflict between communism and freedom is the problem of our time. It overshadows all other problems.” (Improvement Era, Dec. 1959, p. 912.)

  18. fontor
    January 23, 2007 at 7:05 am #

    I suppose this is better than the Satan post. At least Communism existed once. Sort of.

  19. Michael L. Mc Kee
    January 23, 2007 at 7:05 am #

    I cannot recall where I obtained this enlightening information, but I have often read it, and passed it along to others. I believe the key to greater understanding is to realize from a personal introspection that the amount of knowledge most of us possess is so minute as to render our personal opinions as being without much value. While I am quite certain I have little to offer others which might be construed as worthy of consideration, I am equally assured that there are some who likewise are unable to contribute any real substance to a conversation.

    Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing – the Dangers of Apostasy
    *what to beware of in others and what to watch out for in ourselves*

    2 Peter, Chapter 2

    v 1 They will deny Christ.
    v 2 They will make truth appear as evil.
    v 3 They will exploit people with cunning arguments.
    v 10 They will be “self-willed,” that is, obstinate in doing whatever they want without regard for others.
    v 12 They will have little knowledge of the things of righteousness which they defy.
    v 13 They will sin openly, publicly, willfully.
    v 14 They will be motivated by lust and greed.
    v 14 They will prey upon those who are unstable and unseasoned.
    v 18 They will present their cause with polished rhetoric and oratory.
    v 19 They will promise to liberate those who sympathize with and follow after them.

    Jude

    1. The Denial of God the Father and of the Mission of His Son.
    2. The Aspiration for Leadership, Honor and Gain.
    3. Disobedience to Priesthood Authority.
    4. Sexual Transgression.
    5. Disobedience to Civil Authority.
    6. Faultfinding.

    I have often considered that some of these character traits may apply to myself, and I have recognized them in others with whom I have come in contact. Most of them may certainly be ascribed to political figures of all stripes, and even to some who declare membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    In 1791 Thomas Jefferson wrote in “Notes on Virginia,” “….the spirit of the times may alter, will alter. Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless. A single zealot may commence persecutor, and better men be his victims. It can never be too often repeated, that the time for fixing every essential right on a legal basis is while our rulers are honest, and ourselves united. For the conclusion of this war (for Independence) we shall be going down hill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten, therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves, but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion.”

    I am currently reading a well-written book by Steve M. Thomas entitled “Preparing the Elders of Israel to Save the Constitution.” It was released in 2002 so it is not as some would say, “ancient history.” In Chapter 5, “Enemies of Freedom” he paraphrases verses 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, and 25 from Ether 8. He goes on to explain in 5 examples what Moroni was declaring to those of us in the latter days. Rather than quote his 5 explanatory quotes, I’ll permit those who are interested to find the book and read for themselves rather than waste time on any who may find the suggestion beneath their dignity. I will quote some of his observations which are apropos to making a point I am considering: “It is fashionable to mock those who believe in the existence of a great conspiracy seeking to take over the world. It is the inhabitants of the great and spacious building (which represents the pride of the world – (1 Nephi 11:36.) who mock – (1 Nephi 8:27.) the true followers of Christ. Surely the Lord is not pleased when some of his saints are numbered among the scoffers.”

    “They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.” (2 Nephi 8:14.)

    There is a great conspiracy; it has great power; it does seek to take over the world; and we need to obey the Lord’s commandment to wake up, and do our part in fighting the spread of organized evil.”

    “If you have any love of scripture and true doctrine, you will yourselves be looking for the fulfillment of the prophecies given so clearly by Mormon and Moroni.”

    This final quote comes from former President Theodore Roosevelt in a letter to the American Defense Society in 1919, 10 years after his presidency.

    In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man’s becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American….

    There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile….We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language….and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”

    Finally, I should like to make a few remarks to those who seem to find W. Cleon Skousen, and his efforts to inform the American people about the threat of creeping socialism. It is my sincere belief that the Lord does not call all of His sons to leadership positions as General Authorities. In His infinite wisdom He often moves some in the direction of public service so even those who are not recipients of the blessings of the Priesthood Authority may partake of wisdom for their good which they might otherwise not receive. W. Cleon Skousen was a man of Patriotic principle seldom seen in American culture since the days of George Washington, and others who framed the Constitution originally. His knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was vast, and profound. His tireless efforts were, I am certain, deserving of a call to be a General Authority including a Prophet, and he certainly would have made a better leader for the United States than we have had in recent years. I would venture to guess that he and President Benson are now engaged on the other side of the veil in declaring the truth unto those who never heard it, and those who paid little attention to it while they sojourned upon this earth. I can visualize quite an august grouping of men who once held the Mantle of Prophecy, and many who did not, but were just as worthy as those who did.

    By the way, President Benson was not a member of the JBS, but he did recommend we look into it as being a worthwhile organization for those interested in working against the evil which intends to bring the United States into conformity with the plan of Lucifer, and his minions. I, personally found it to my liking, so I guess I am one of those conspiracy theorists who follows much, but not all of their concepts.

  20. Curtis
    January 23, 2007 at 7:30 am #

    Connor,
    1. Do you require such a statement to explicitly mention communism and not merely describe it or make mention to its principles and ideals?
    2. Do you discount all apostolic testimony and teaching, simply because they were not the President of the Church? Are not Apostles also sustained as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators?

    Watcha got?

    R. Gary,

    David O. McKay assumed the mantle in 1951. During the October 1959 General Conference, he referred to Skousen’s book, The Naked Communist, and said, “I admonish everybody to read that excellent book.” He then quoted the following from the flyleaf: “The conflict between communism and freedom is the problem of our time. It overshadows all other problems.”

    Thanks for the quote. The conflict between communism (which was represented by the Soviet Union and all of the oppression and tyranny it represented) and freedom was the problem of his time. Is it the problem of our time as well?

  21. Curtis
    January 23, 2007 at 7:34 am #

    Connor,
    If communism is Satan’s plan, as Pres. Benson said, would it not cover a broader range than you seem to paint?

    Do you imply here that communism is Satan’s only plan or that it is just one of his tools? My interpretation of his remarks apply to the communism that he saw, the totalitarian and wicked regimes of the Soviet’s… that are long gone right now.

  22. R. Gary
    January 23, 2007 at 8:31 am #

    Communism is/was not actually run from Moscow or Peking, but by a conspiracy of influential and widely respected non-Communists from within the United States and Europe. According to the Book of Mormon, as interpreted by a modern Prophet, this is the conspiracy that is “increasing its evil influence and control” over America and the entire world. (President Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, Nov. 1988, p. 87.)

  23. Chris
    January 23, 2007 at 10:56 am #

    You bring out an amazing amount of thought in other people. Your blog is a great read.

  24. Curtis
    January 23, 2007 at 3:13 pm #

    Gary,
    It does seem that Benson had this theme going for a long time that communism was the great secret combination that we had to avoid in the latter days. The talk quoted from 1988 doesn’t explicitly mention communism though. He goes into detail in warning us about the great secret combinations of the latter days that will try to take down the freedoms of all nations, but doesn’t explicitly identify this threat as coming from communism. One could extrapolate from his previous sayings that it was communism he was referring to, but it is also entirely possible that he was speaking of another threat and had grown out of the communism thing. I don’t remember how threatened we all felt by communism in 1988. The Berlin Wall came down in November of 1989, I know that much.

    In my opinion, there is a much better candidate for at least a representative of the secret combinations of the latter days. This secret combination fits extremely well into the description given in the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price, and is indeed intent on overthrowing the freedoms of the nations of the world. I’d encourage you all to look into this secret combination, which is well described in many different books today… perhaps best in the book, “Confessions of an Economic Hitman.” Then there is the classic, “Deterring Democracy” by Noam Chomsky (and just about any other book he has written).

    Essentially, this secret combination has used great wealth to buy up armies in order to protect its ability to accumulate greater wealth, while disregarding the lives of the peoples who stand in the way, which often consists entire indigent populations in many countries.

    Communism is never really even hinted at in the Book of Mormon. It is always a characteristic that these guys store up gold and silver and are involved in trade etc. Stealing from the rich to give to the poor is not a characteristic of the secret combinations of the scriptures we have.

  25. Doc
    January 23, 2007 at 6:52 pm #

    Curtis,
    Look up Mikhail Bakunin, I think you will find it interesting. He was a contemporary of Marx and essentially agreed with all his ideas except for the need for violent overthrow of the government in power. It was he, one of the fathers of the anarchist movement correctly predicted that the use of Marx’s methods to establish his goals would lead to the establishment of a Worker’s party, just as corrupt or more so than the government they overthrew. Yes, theoretically Marx thought all government would dissolve, but in practice it just ain’t so because of the forced system that disrespects the liberty of others. In this sense communism is in actuality a secret combination. It is essentially a retooling of Satan’s plan to force the correct way upon society.

  26. Josh
    January 31, 2007 at 12:34 am #

    I’d like to point out that “seperation of church and state” comes from an obscure letter by Thomas Jefferson. It is not part of any founding governemtn document. The only reason it is even considered in legal cases is because of a Tyrannical and Evil Supreme Court decision in the Early 19th century which took the letter out of context, and quoted it to give credibility to an absurd ruling. I’m sure Jefferson is tossing in his grave at the misrepresentation of his words.

    I don’t mean to be rude, but I have never read so many naive philosophies in one sitting as I have while reading through the comments listed above. Anyone who doubts communisim is thriving in the US and across Canada and Europe needs serious help. The idea of the government owning healthcare, the government running the schools, the government owning ANYTHING is Communist by its very nature. You can call it socialisim or Marxisim or Communisim or (my personal favorite) Satanic, but it is what it is.

    Remember that Thomas Jefferson did not even wish to make the Louisiana Purchase because it was a power not given to the Federal Government. Since then, the Feds have taken over huge tracts of land and have centralized things like healthcare, the schools, Jobs (Ever heard of the New Deal? Communist.) Communisim lives.

  27. Mark N.
    January 31, 2007 at 1:20 pm #

    The U.S. is closer to becoming a communist nation because of the “U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war“?

    Holy cow. I’ll bet that turning the other cheek leads to communism, too.

  28. Richard Hiltbrunn
    February 5, 2007 at 2:00 am #

    I think that what the U.S. has been leaning towards is more of a welfare state than Communism. We seem to be heading, now, for more of a facist type of world governance thing, with the melding of the public and the private sectors. At least that’s what I gathered a few years ago from the U.N. web site.

    Communism, in my understanding is a revolutionary, and many times, very forceful and bloody approach to Socialism. It seems to me that most similar (I mean socialist) idiologies have a nucleus of some form of materialism with the control of the materials in the hands of the state.

    I remember reading in the “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” and also in the “Words of Joseph Smith,” that a gentleman was going around the country preaching socialism (not sure what brand…maybe fabian), and that J.S.’s recorders recorded that he “did not believe the doctine.” Interesting…I think.

    LDS historians like Lyndon Cook and oh…what’s his name…Hyrum Andrus, that’s it, seem to think that the Law of Consecration and the United Order were not socialist, communist , and or fascist. Hugh Nibley one time talked about the socialists (especially Marx) stating the problem being that it is all materialism. That’s what the Lord is trying to get us away from. At least under capitalism, which by no means is perfect, you have a choice. And, you hear the argument all the time that socialism is more humane, and that most capitalists are just money grubbing materialists. There’s an interesting new book out called something like “Who Gives”. Sorry, I’ve just read parts in the book store :) The author is a true Liberal in the modern sense. His research is on who is more charitable in terms of individuals and societies. He, being a liberal, had his bias, which he states. He has changed his tune after completing and analyzing the data. It turns out that the liberal, for the most part, but not always, is the least likely to give, and the conservative, esp, religious, familied, and anti govt. intervention, is the most likely to be charitable. Interesting…cause when I have talked to many with a liberal bent, they have not wanted to get involved themselves, but wanted gov’t to do it for them.

    One last thing. It seems to me that what socialism, in all it’s forms, has done for man kind, in most situations, is bring shared misery and poverty to the masses, and the few at the top make bank. Yes, some European nations have created a decent standard of living, but only under very controlled conditions. Much more control than I think you or I would like, especially with our view of immigrants.

  29. Richard Hiltbrunn
    February 5, 2007 at 2:09 am #

    Oh yes, to complete my comment about our European cousins, I’ll make it with a question: What cost, in moral and social terms, did the “perfect society” and “no unemployment” come with? There’s always a cost…isn’t there?

  30. fontor
    February 5, 2007 at 2:23 am #

    Does Communism mean ‘anything conservatives don’t like’?

    I thought the term ‘liberal’ covered all that stuff.

  31. carissa
    January 4, 2008 at 9:50 am #

    What does everyone think about the idea that the fall of communism in the Soviet Union was a pretense?

    At some point prior to this war [future world war], Russia must emerge from its deception about the fall of the Soviet Union and reestablish that Union. Secretly, Communist leaders are still active in each of the former Soviet States ready to deliver over their nations once again to Russia during the first stages of the war.

    With all the media attention given Putin as Russia’s new strongman, don’t forget that Putin is just a puppet, like
    Bush (though not nearly as poorly spoken), and controlled
    by other powers behind the throne i.e.: Boris Berezovsky
    and other “oligarches” who were real Communist bosses
    who engineered the “fall of Communism.”

    The Communists secretly run all of the major opposition parties in Russia, except for the smallest libertarian parties. In addition, the continuing Soviets still have puppet leaders posing as pro-Western globalists in the former Soviet states.

    Joel Skousen

  32. Connor
    January 4, 2008 at 9:56 am #

    What does everyone think about the idea that the fall of communism in the Soviet Union was a pretense?

    That would be supported by this report that says, in part:

    An unprecedented study of Russia’s political and business leadership suggests that “78 percent of the Russian elite” have a KGB background, according to Olga Kryshtanovskaya, the study’s author.

  33. Kelly W.
    January 4, 2008 at 11:52 am #

    I think that communism, socialism, fascism, and extreme capitalism are all “isms” that are controlled by the Secret Combinations of these Latter-Days, and are all ultimately controlled by Satan in an effort to subvert the plan of God for us on this earth.

    If my thinking holds any water on this line of thinking, that means that Satan’s goals are to obtain power over governments, no matter whether it’s Russia, China or USA.

    I have a firm conviction that the “red scare” of the Cold War and communism are/were nothing more than pretenses in Satanic efforts to control the world.

    Soviet Union’s “fall” was most likely manipulated by the PTB, as are the current situations right now in the Neo-Con movement’s effort to force freedom onto oil-rich nations.

    It seems likely that the PTB are now already onto their next movement of dropping their support for the Neo-Cons, and the next area of support will be revealed shortly after the next election cycle for POTUSA.

    Now that I’ve commented, I’ll go and read Connor’s link he posted in the previous comment.

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