Can a reasonable and informed person believe that the PATRIOT Act, for example, passes Constitutional muster?

“Joseph Smith, the prophet,… predicted that the time would come, when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints, above all other people in the world, would come to the rescue of that great and glorious palladium of our liberty.” Joseph Fielding Smith (Gospel Doctrine, 403.)

“The idea that the Constitution would one day hang by a thread, first put forth by Joseph Smith, is one of the most interesting and controversial subjects related to LDS teachings about the U.S. Constitution….

“Our study shows that eight modern prophets have made statements about the Constitution’s hanging by a thread, and that all eight of them quoted Joseph Smith as well as adding ideas of their own. However, Joseph Smith and the other twelve prophets of this dispensation have all said that at some time in the future the Constitution would be in jeopardy, and it would be rescued by the Elders of Israel.” (Latter-day Prophets and the United States Constitution, Donald Q. Cannon, ed., Provo, BYU Religious Studies Center, 1991, xii-xiii.)

“Unfortunately, we as a nation have apostatized in various degrees from different Constitutional principles as proclaimed by the inspired founders. We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: ‘Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction’ (19 July 1840, Church Historian’s Office).

“Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear. The longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution, and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and world-wide mission.” – Ezra Taft Benson

Evidence that the Constitution is Hanging by A Thread

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=JustinMartyrJr&view=videos

Global Conquest

See also this link list page to numereous documentaries.

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter-day-saints/TRQK1L6O2UCG372A9

http://www.sprword.com/globalelite.html

“There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called the Republican, and the other the Democrat party. These two parties will go to war and out of these two parties will spring another party which will be the Independent American Party.”

this statement isn’t in Andrew Ehat’s book, “the words of joseph smith” which book is considered one of the foremost authoritative books on joseph smith’s statements.

In addition people think about corroborative statements by other people. No one else recorded this statement. Period.
I’m not doubting what joseph smith said, however i seriously question that mosiah hancock heard this exact statement from the prophet

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/v-pfriendly/story/485561p-408789c.html

You are essentially attacking the character of everyone that has posted this quote on their blog.

If that’s the way you took it, I’m sorry. But making an observation about whether somone takes “care” to not publish hearsay is nothing close to an attack on that person’s character. That you construe my observations about the level of care possessed by certain people attributing quotes to others as an “attack on character” reveals your irrational stance toward argument. But again, I’m sorry you felt I was attacking you personally. True, you don’t repeat the quote, but you certainly were arguing for its authenticity (and if this was not your intention, you must have been arguing for the sake of argument).

As for what “they teach [me] in law school”: I don’t think you want to go there. If you’re really interested in my view of academics and so-called “higher learning” read this.

Would you then say that any person that quotes another in a journal or autobiography is hearsay?

Is a person hearsay? I’ll assume your question is whether the quote is hearsay. In a court of law, yes. But for our purposes, no; I wasn’t talking about legal hearsay and was just refering to unsubstantiated and unconfirmable second hand assertions. If someone quotes another person as saying something, and that statement can be verified in some kind of prior publication made by the person quoted (in any form), then it’s not hearsay because it can be corroborated. Except I’m not sure what you’re getting at here? I don’t know why it’s so hard to see that the quote from Mosiah Hancock should not be attributed to Joseph Smith (immediate transcriptions of lectures or speeches which are later self-verified are completely different than fifty-year old second hand recollections).

That would lead one to argue that “it is not objective, intelligent, or even honest to claim those exact words” came from the Savior when he told Joseph Smith that none of the churches on the earth was true.

Your logical sequence and rhetoric are unpersuasive at best. First, Joseph never offered his testimony with the intent that anyone automatically believe him. I’m sure you’re aware of this statement: “No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall never undertake it. I don’t blame anyone for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself” (HC 6:317). So, in a sense you’re right! It’s not objective, intelligent, or honest to outright believe anything Joseph said. Indeed, that is why it is so necessary to obtain a personal witness through the Holy Ghost. And this is why your comparisons don’t work; i.e. Hancock was not asserting anything concerning salvation through Christ. So to compare his assertions to those of Joseph who claimed (and rightly so in my estimation) to offer the words of life and salvation from Christ, is to mischaracterize the point. It’s a red herring, much like this whole thread-jack; which, incidentally has once again diverted the conversation away from my previous points that are now buried and to which no one is willing to respond.

there are a ton of people like you who couldn’t care less that they are repeating hearsay.

Nice Wade. Attack my character. You don’t find this quote on my blog. You are essentially attacking the character of everyone that has posted this quote on their blog. I’m not familiar with this stuff, but is that what they teach you to do in law school?

How do you define hearsay. Would you then say that any person that quotes another in a journal or autobiography is hearsay? That would lead one to argue that “it is not objective, intelligent, or even honest to claim those exact words” came from the Savior when he told Joseph Smith that none of the churches on the earth was true. After all, he was only 14 and he wrote his account much later in life.

So where do you take into account testimony?

Nice try. But a general recollection of major events and the location of the hill Shim in Antum is a foolish thing to compare to precise language and wording of an alleged statement made by Joseph Smith concerning political parties and statements (within the quote) made by individuals during a civil war when boys from Utah will save the nation.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the quote and think it’s interesting. I’m only saying it is not objective, intelligent, or even honest to claim those exact words came from Joseph Smith. But I realize I’m fighting a losing battle; there are a ton of people like you who couldn’t care less that they are repeating hearsay. Unfortunatly, it makes the rest of what they say (which is true) appear disingenuous.

I love that quote, and have posted it here.

There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called the Republican, and the other the Democrat party. These two parties will go to war and out of these two parties will spring another party which will be the Independent American Party. The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, “Let’s divide up the lands of the United States”, then the people of the U. S. will unite and swear by the blood of their fore-fathers, that the land shall not be divided. Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the U. S. army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up–when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin. And they will say, ‘Brethren, we are glad you have come; give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God’. Then you will have friends, but you will save the country when it’s liberty hangs by a hair, as it were”.

One more thing: you might be interested to note that Alexander Hamilton (I’m sure you’re aware of his high regard for the Constitution) said the following about his concern that the Executive never become a puppet for the Legislature:

“The propensity of the legislative department to intrude upon the rights, and to absorb the powers, of the other departments, has been already suggested and repeated; the insufficiency of a mere parchment delineation of the boundaries of each, has also been remarked upon; and the necessity of furnishing each with constitutional arms for its own defense, has been inferred and proved.” (Federalist # 73)

Did you catch his reference to the INSUFFICIENCY OF MERE PARCHMENT? Wow, sounds like he was talking about the Constitution as being just a piece of paper too. :) Just thought you’d enjoy that.

I recommend reading Number 73 all the way through (but I also recommend all 85 of them)!