I’ve taught high school for 42 years. Forcing kids to go to school beyond grade seven is counter productive.

Kids who don’t want to be in school don’t benefit much and they prevent others from learning. They make life miserable for the teacher. They discover that the school has no power over them. These kids want to come to school to be with their friends.

The law makes it very difficult for a school to ask a student to leave.

What’s worse than making a student go to school is forcing a teacher to cope with students who don’t want to conform.
Society needs options for these kids.

My hunch is that if these kids were allowed to be self directing, they would still come to school to hang out. They would also skip a lot, play video games a lot, and get into trouble with the law.

Students who don’t want to do what the teacher asks, should be free to leave. Furthermore, teachers should not be required to keep students who don’t want to learn what the teacher is hired to teach.

This really hit home w/ the recent Utah voucher debacle. Too many people think that government should exist to regulate society, making people conform to a pre-determined standard.

As Ron Paul notes at the end of this funny video clip, this isn’t government’s role. And if we allow it in one sphere of life, what’s to prevent the intrusion in another?

The Founders knew best when they brought power down to “We the People” inasmuch as possible. The exclusion of an oversight of education in the enumerated powers speaks volumes regarding who should be in charge of all things educational. Not the NEA, and certainly not the federal government.

Trust in families and neighborhoods and individuals to make sense of the important question, “What is education for?” If some of them answer differently from what you might prefer, that’s really not your business, and it shouldn’t be your problem.

Our society seems to have a hard time with this concept. We want to regulate, control, and standardize others so much when it comes to education. What’s wrong with letting each family decide what works best for them? I think Gatto has the right idea here. It seems to be more compatible with America’s foundational philosophy of individual liberty, and more in line with the gospel teachings of free agency and accountability.

How many parents never have this type of conversation and send their kids to school because school is where kids go? Most parents do. And I don’t think that they are in the wrong for doing so.

Absolutely. I never used to think twice about where my kids would go to school. I went to public school, so would they. No reason to do anything different. And I don’t believe that would have been a bad choice for us, knowing what I knew (or didn’t know) then.

Since I have come across new information, given new ideas some serious scrutiny, and studied and prayed intently about them, I feel like I would be held responsible if I did not act on the new information and feelings I have. Had I not gone through this process, it is not rational to believe I would have been accountable for what I did not know. Hopefully this is making sense. Therefore, I absolutely do not condemn others who are doing their best with the knowledge and abilities they have. I also believe that is how we will be judged. God is fair and just. He doesn’t expect us to follow a path we do not even know exists. I also realize that others may not even come to the same conclusion I did given the same knowledge.

No matter how much we try, we do not have control over our children’s life; to think otherwise gives us an inaccurate perception of reality

This is correct. I don’t even want the burden of trying to control every aspect of my children’s lives. But I do want to fufill my obligations as a parent in training them and teaching them as the spirit directs, especially while they are in their youth. Homeschooling is giving me the time that I feel like my husband and I need to right now to do this effectively. I’m sure there are other parents who are much more efficient and can work around school hours.

Of course the Holy Spirit will guide us as we live worthily. And if the Spirit directs our actions in any way, then that decision falls within the realm of “the Lord’s commands”. However, the Spirit will accompany ANY worthy efforts, and we can’t mistake His presence as a confirmation that our actions are the ONLY right ones in the situation.

Wow! I really like that paragraph too. That is very wise advice for all of us to keep in mind. When we feel “the Lord’s commands” for us, it is natural for us to want to share our feelings with others so they can experience the joy we feel and come to know what we have found out. Obviously, it doesn’t always come across well, though. Thanks for your insight.

What should we do if we have a choice is the thing I’m wondering? We have been told, by our prophet, what our homes should be like. We haven’t really been given any current specific counsel about school, however, just that gaining an education is very important.

This is a very important question. I just can’t imagine President Hinckley chastising a parent for sending their child to public school. How many parents never have this type of conversation and send their kids to school because school is where kids go? Most parents do. And I don’t think that they are in the wrong for doing so. I think instead he might be asking question like: Are you reading the Book of Mormon each day?, Are you saying personal and family prayers?, etc.

And those of use who do have this conversation, and do make an (seemingly) more conscious decision in the matter are not “better” parents necessarily. We are approaching life the best way we know how, just as all parents are doing so. The Lord will bless us in our best efforts.

To feel a need to control the minutiae of our children’s environment shows a lack of faith in the restored gospel. No matter how much we try, we do not have control over our children’s life; to think otherwise gives us an inaccurate perception of reality, and causes us to think, act, and react, based on a falsehood.

This is not to say we can’t do all we can to support our children’s safety, assist them in decision-making, etc. And this in no way condones apathy. Rather, it points to an understanding that all is in the Lord’s hands. We marry our best efforts with an unshakeable faith in the Lord’s wisdom and mercy.

To think that my child’s eternal happiness will be based on a decision I make about where they spend first grade? This doesn’t seem right. To think that my eternal happiness will hinge on the accumulation of my parents’ decisions with me? This is not congruent with gospel principles.

My statements are not intended to belittle the efforts of the any parents; but it would be unfortunate if parents thought their children’s happiness depended upon their (the parents’) decisions in matters such as school, geographic location of residence, and other matters that are not related to following the Lord’s commands.

Let me qualify that last paragraph. Of course the Holy Spirit will guide us as we live worthily. And if the Spirit directs our actions in any way, then that decision falls within the realm of “the Lord’s commands”. However, the Spirit will accompany ANY worthy efforts, and we can’t mistake His presence as a confirmation that our actions are the ONLY right ones in the situation.

OOH. I like that last paragraph.

Fun conversation. I await your response.

We can transfer this conversation over to another place if we don’t want to continue it here. I am going to convert a large portion of my responses into a post on my blog. I’ve done more writing in the comments sections on this blog than in my own blog postings. It’s about time that I start beefing up my blog with my thoughts, instead of others’ blogs!

Do I need to go through the experience of being offered drugs or using drugs in order to be strong in resisting temptation? Or is it enough for my parents to teach me correct principles and talk with me truthfully and openly about the real-life consequences of drug use? What about in the case of swearing, gossiping, morality, abuse, pornography, etc?

To answer the above question: No.
However, I don’t see parents sending kids to public school as exactly the same thing.

I don’t see it as exactly the same thing either because different schools vary greatly from each other (and there can be a variety of experiences within each school). I have just heard some parents say they want their children to practice saying “no” etc. so they need to be around these things. Which I completely understand, but at the appropriate age… you know. Especially not before 8, I think, since they aren’t even accountable yet.

In my opinion, kids do not need to come home from first grade wondering if it’s okay to have sex at school (My friend’s experience with her son the other day). The exact same thing could also happen outside of school, however. But parents do have much more control over a home/play type situation than a school one.

My point is that some often look at this situation in one of two ways: 1) protect and nurture, provide a safe haven, etc., or 2) expose the children to the world so they can strengthen their muscles. I don’t see it as an either/or situation. My children go to school (much as we were sent to earth), and I try to provide a safe haven at home.

I see what you are saying here, but many parents do have a choice of how and where their children will receive this “school experience” at least during the younger years. Thirty years ago, not as many choices, no. But earlier you said:

I am aware that this is a conscious choice my wife and I make to expose them to this on a daily basis by way of public schools.

How does God decide who is born into a righteous loving home vs. an abusive neglectful home? Into freedom or captivity? Wealth or extreme poverty? These are all vastly different experiences on this same earth. We obviously don’t know how that all works. What should we do if we have a choice is the thing I’m wondering? We have been told, by our prophet, what our homes should be like. We haven’t really been given any current specific counsel about school, however, just that gaining an education is very important.

Is it beneficial for children to regularly be exposed to teasing, cussing, bad examples, etc. from their peers? Does it provide them practice for life as an adult and help strengthen their testimonies of what they really believe? Or should childhood be a time for foundation building with as much good influence and least negative as possible? Should it be a refuge, a safe haven from the world, a time to enjoy life and learn without the pressure and worries of adulthood or sin?

I don’t see it as a matter of being beneficial or not. The fact is, they experience opposition in the world. This is not because I’ve set up a particular “game board” or “scenario” for them, but because in a world of free agents, people are going to make poor decisions, and we will be exposed to the various consequences of those decisions. I think this is related to the role our Heavenly Father plays. Does he send us to earth (a rather harsh playground) because he thinks it is beneficial? Actually, yes. But he is not controlling the actions of those on the playground. . .

Okay, the analogy is a bit flawed, I know. My point is that some often look at this situation in one of two ways: 1) protect and nurture, provide a safe haven, etc., or 2) expose the children to the world so they can strengthen their muscles. I don’t see it as an either/or situation. My children go to school (much as we were sent to earth), and I try to provide a safe haven at home.

Do I need to go through the experience of being offered drugs or using drugs in order to be strong in resisting temptation? Or is it enough for my parents to teach me correct principles and talk with me truthfully and openly about the real-life consequences of drug use? What about in the case of swearing, gossiping, morality, abuse, pornography, etc?

To answer the above question: No.
However, I don’t see parents sending kids to public school as exactly the same thing. Any time kids get together there is a likelihood of swearing, gossiping, morality issues, teasing, pornography. School just happens to be a place with a lot of kids.

As I re-read your comments, I realize that I am just re-stating what you wrote. I think we can agree that parents should be thoughful in all their decisions. We also agree that schools have a lot of problems because the federal government should probably not be in the business of running schools.

I do agree with the importance of having kids in mixed aged groups, even across generations.

I would love to move to a remote farm with all my extended family. Wouldn’t that be nice?. . .

It is very hard to know that my children experience teasing, cussing, etc. at school. I am aware that this is a conscious choice my wife and I make to expose them to this on a daily basis by way of public schools. Yet, I see this as the “practice” that you mention above. My wife and I are constantly talking about the children’s school experience; we look at the pressures and see what we can do to foster a safe haven at home.

Now this is a really interesting subject to me and something I think a lot about. Is it beneficial for children to regularly be exposed to teasing, cussing, bad examples, etc. from their peers? Does it provide them practice for life as an adult and help strengthen their testimonies of what they really believe? Or should childhood be a time for foundation building with as much good influence and least negative as possible? Should it be a refuge, a safe haven from the world, a time to enjoy life and learn without the pressure and worries of adulthood or sin?

What an interesting and difficult dilemma for parents! The answer, I believe, is not so cut and dry. Children absolutely need to have both opposition and good in their lives for them to learn and choose and grow. Should each side receive equal time? I think most of us would agree that overall we want more good experiences for them than bad ones; more positive role models than negative. Parents aren’t exactly hearing counsel from our church leaders like “make sure your children have adequate exposure to sin in order to keep them strong.” But what should we do?

Do I need to go through the experience of being offered drugs or using drugs in order to be strong in resisting temptation? Or is it enough for my parents to teach me correct principles and talk with me truthfully and openly about the real-life consequences of drug use? What about in the case of swearing, gossiping, morality, abuse, pornography, etc?

One thing is sure, public schools are not the only settings where children will come across negative behavior and influences, especially in today’s world. I feel like, for us, there are plenty of opportunities already (among family, friends, neighbors). I do not wish to voluntarily add anymore to their lives at this point. Other families may have different situations and feel differently and that is their choice and privilege. Very interesting discussion though, I’m sure there are lots of different opinons out there about what childhood should be like.

Gatto has his opinions. He believes children should be free to interact with the real world as part of their education; the community and the family (including the elderly who could teach them a lot) instead of being locked up all day for 12 years with people of their same age, being told exactly what to do. There is wisdom in what he says.

P.S. I don’t think WalMart is “evil” either just because they are gaining a monopoly. They are so big because they provide what people want. That’s how a free society should work and people can choose everyday whether they want to shop there or not. I think that’s how education should be. The cost would go down, quality would increase with competition, educational issues would not be so politicized, and everyone could get what they wanted to the degree they were willing to work for it.

And I never intended to label you a complainer. I try to use the first person–my ideas work for me and I don’t try to paste my philosophy on others.

No, I’ve never read the book, but perhaps I will.

I agree that homeschooling is a great solution for many people. And for a number of children (and families), I would concede that it is the best solution.

I agree that public schooling exacerbates existing problems with families.

You wrote:

I believe compulsory schooling only adds to the problem of weak families by taking time away from them — time they need to practice and develop into strong families.

It is very hard to know that my children experience teasing, cussing, etc. at school. I am aware that this is a conscious choice my wife and I make to expose them to this on a daily basis by way of public schools. Yet, I see this as the “practice” that you mention above. My wife and I are constantly talking about the children’s school experience; we look at the pressures and see what we can do to foster a safe haven at home. So, FOR US, right now, we’ve made the choice of public schools. This might change in the future; it might change for one of our children, or all five; or they might stay in public schooling through graduation. Like many decisions, I don’t see one right decision and many wrong ones–instead I see many good decisions and many bad ones. Looking at your choice from my perspective, It’s not a matter of homeschooling being “right” for your family. That’s not my decision to make. The point is–it’s your decision and you’ve made it. Therefore, it’s “right” for you.

I shopped at Walmart this morning. The two ladies that helped me were very nice. Some employees were goofing off. I know they’ve driven many smaller stores out of business. I don’t think this makes them evil. Your analogy with Walmart is a great one. I just try to never be the victim. I hate being a victim. I look at things as “the way it is”, instead of “bad for me”.

Now, I do think the federal government is way too big. They should not be running schools–this is unconstitutional.

I admit that some of these random thoughts may appear to contradict one another. They do fit together nicely for me. Ha ha.

Fun discussion. Great issues and many factors to consider as we debate the metaphysical monster that is publice education. Most importantly, this discussion has made me re-commit to be a better parent and to be kinder to my children. For that alone, this conversation has been positive.

You may not believe that school interferes with your family time. But can you be sure that other families are not suffering from it?

My husband’s usual work schedule is from 3pm to about midnight, often including weekends. If we were not homeschooling, it would be easy to add up the hours each week he would be able to spend with the children because there would not be many. Since we are able to make our own educational choices, though, we have all the family time together that we want and my husband can pursue opportunities that are best for his career. The children are thriving in their studies and I am fulfilled by being so involved in their education and their lives, so it has been a win-win solution for our family.

Financially, it is a disadvantage because we pay taxes for schools in addition to our own curriculum and supplies. I don’t mind spending the money because I think it is very much worth it, but I know that a lot of people don’t homeschool because of the burden of paying for 2 types of education (or maybe just the idea). That is what keeps many people away from private schools as well. Why should we have to pay for 2 systems if we don’t want to use one of them?

To me, it’s like if the government had it’s own grocery store chain monopoly like WalMart. It would be free for us to get groceries there because we would all be forced to support it through our taxes. The law would say, “you can buy your groceries somewhere else if you want, but you might need to have a permission slip signed first and you’ll have to pay for the cost yourself while still paying the same taxes”. Well, okay, so most of us just shop at the government’s WalMart because it’s free and easier. Well, what happens if they don’t sell what you want to buy, or their produce is soggy, or your local store isn’t kept very clean and the meat is sometimes contaminated, or the clerks are rude or the hours aren’t flexible… you just might want to shop at another store down the road that better suits you, or grow most of your own food in a garden at home. You are free to do so, but the government has made it harder. And, if your garden is not up to their standards, they could shut it down.

Most Americans would not stand for government interference this way, and yet that is the system we have with education and most people don’t question it. If someone wants to shop at a government grocery store, fine. If someone wants to use a government school, fine. Why should the rest be disadvantaged for making a different choice?

In my case, my kids are better off when my energy goes towards one-on-one time with them as opposed to complaints for public school reform. If I don’t like public school as a parent, I know my options. To complain would be a waste of time.

Agreed, which is why we homeschool. Therefore, I am not complaining. I simply find truth in what Gatto says and I believe it is worth discussion and debate, not at all a waste of time. Good ideas that can better society are never a waste of time. Gatto is full of good ideas and solutions. Have you read his book?

Schools do not cause weak families or weak communities. Weak parents cause weak families and communities.

Yes, weak parents can cause weak families and therefore, communities. I believe compulsory schooling only adds to the problem of weak families by taking time away from them — time they need to practice and develop into strong families. Gatto explains it this way:

“It’s like a malicious person lifting a photograph from the developing chemicals too early, and then pronouncing the photographer incompetent.” (The photographer being the parents and the malicious person the school system) pg 67

I completely understand that many families do fine by using the left-over hours from school/homework to work on family relationships, religious study, etc. That is good that they can (I came from such a family) and it is not impossible to do. That is not to say, however, things couldn’t be done in a better and more efficient way. It is not to say that some family relationships don’t need more time than what is left-over after school. Every family is different. So why not trust each one to do what is best?

I also do not see public education as the “root” of all problems in society. Although… as I have studied the history of it and the influential people who were involved in shaping the philosophies behind the system, I can’t help but think it contributes to, magnifies, and even creates some of our societal problems. In saying this, however, I do not dismiss parental responsibility.

“… schools are already a major cause of weak families and weak communities. They separate parents and children from vital interaction with each other and from true curiosity about each other’s lives. Schools stifle family originality by appropriating the critical time needed for any sound idea of family to develop.” pg 67

I can’t agree with the above statement. Schools do not cause weak families or weak communities. Weak parents cause weak families and communities.

I am an educator of over ten years (in a private school, I must admit). I am a product of public schooling. I can and do agree with many criticisms of public schooling–but I don’t place the responsibility on the government to raise my children; therefore, I don’t place the blame on them if my children have problems.

I think life is more about people and less about systems or organizations. Regardless of the shortfalls of public education (or any organization), my children have been fortunate to be taught by some great teachers who have loved them and supported them. Sure, I’ve disagreed with some stuff they’ve done, and my kids have a long way to go–there’ll be more conflict. In my case, my kids are better off when my energy goes towards one-on-one time with them as opposed to complaints for public school reform. If I don’t like public school as a parent, I know my options. To complain would be a waste of time.

#1 Our tax-supported public school system with it’s compulsory attendance laws contrasts with a free democratic society. Think about this with an open mind — it is true.

“For 140 years this nation has tried to impose objectives downward from a lofty command center made up of “experts,” a central elite of social engineers. It hasn’t worked. It won’t work. And it is a gross betrayal of the democratic promise that once made this nation a noble experiment. pg 29

“The lesson of my teaching life is that both the theory and the structure of mass education are fatally flawed; they cannot work to support the democratic logic of our national idea because they are unfaithful to the democratic principle.” pg 69

#2 The family unit is suffering, partially due to lack of time spent together. Compulsory schooling, along with required homework, adds to this problem because it diminishes personal choice of how time is spent and who the student can interact with during those hours.

“… schools are already a major cause of weak families and weak communities. They separate parents and children from vital interaction with each other and from true curiosity about each other’s lives. Schools stifle family originality by appropriating the critical time needed for any sound idea of family to develop.” pg 67

“… formal schooling has already wounded us seriously in our ability to form families and communities, by bleeding away time we need with our children and our children need with us.” pg 52

“By preempting fifty percent of the total time of the young, by locking young people up with other young people exactly their own age, by ringing bells to start and stop work, by asking people to think the same thing at the same time in the same way, by grading people the way we grade vegetables — and in a dozen other vile and stupid ways — network schools steal the vitality of communities and replace it with an ugly mechanism.” pg 51

If Gatto’s comments do not ring true to you in some way, I would urge you to read his book for yourself with an open mind. We are so used to the set-up we have now that it can be difficult to imagine any other way of doing things. It helps to realize, though, that our country started out with something much different; a system we could again return to where parents and students are empowered to choose for themselves what they will make of their lives. A “free market in schooling, exactly like the one the country had until the Civil War, one in which students volunteer for the kind of education that suits them even if that means self-education.” pg 18

Also, see: The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America by Charlotte iserbyt.

There is also much more you can read on the subject. But of course, most won’t.

My biggest problem with public ed. is the secular, political, indoctination that goes on there. When you think about it for just a moment, by sending you child to the public school, or any school for that matter, you are, with out saying a word, sending a message to your child that they (the teachers) are the experts, they know better, and are more qualified to teach all subjects in the curriculum, including the politically correct stuff that teachers and text books promote. Unfortunately, many things that are taught in school today have nothing to do with the three r’s and everything to do with political correctness.

In many cases, the teachers are better qualified to teach the 3 r’s, but in our case they were not. We moved to an area where the schools were way behind, voluntarily. We tried to talk to school teachers and officials. We were consistantly told that we were wrong in expecting more out of the teachers, and that we were not the professionals, therefore did not know what was best in the way of teaching our children to read, write or do math. We had recently moved from an area were we were perfectly happy with the ed. our kids were getting, and were not thinking of home schooling. Sorry, I’m letting this drag on. The point is that we were not wrong about what was happening in our schools. Others had noticed and expressed similar views to ours. It was only after the “No child left behind” thing came out, that the schools here decided to change thier approach to basic instruction. A little too late for our oldest kids (we were very reluctant to home school early on!). The thing that was the deciding factor for me was finding out that many of the teachers, and thier kids, were on ritalin and were suggesting parents do the same for thier kids (we live in a small town) It is a weird situation to say the least. Oh, just one more thing…the principal of our grade school had recenlty returned from finishing a masters in ed. She sent a summer news letter to us about the proposed time and class schedule. She was very proud to note that the first 15 to 30 minutes of every school day would be devoted to the “celebration of education”. Well that just sounded too kookie for me. Must have sounded that way to may others in town cause many complained. So, for us, home school for some of our kids has been the only way that seemed right.

How do I know what’s good for my child? I’ve been through an extensive education myself and have experienced enough pitfalls to make better choices for the future. This doesn’t mean that I axe everything I don’t agree with from my child’s curriculum. It just means I teach it correctly (or, have someone else, like a private school whose philosophy I agree with). This way, I can make my children aware of the fact that evolution is a theory that exists, but it certainly isn’t the way that man was created.

See, the problem is, students don’t always flag erroneous information as ‘uncomfortable’ and come home to talk about it at the dinner table. They accept what they’re taught, until they learn to think for themselves, logically and rationally. I’d rather the information was presented correctly the first time.

That, among other reasons, is why I’m a proponent of more choice in education.

I have never been comfy with the whole student-led education thing. This, esp. in the early years, gives chidren a bit too much credit and power, IMO. As children are exposed to more options out there, then maybe we could introduce more choice along the way, but my limited view tells me that this philosophy, if implemented from square one, could really lead to trouble. Kids don’t know enough to know what they want to choose, and giving them too much freedom to do so too early seems counter-productive.

So, what about those that can’t get in? If you eliminate public ed for other avenues, do you “select” kids that just don’t get an education?

I’m extremely interested in the answer to this question. I also think that it’s dangerous to assume that people can homeschool if they can’t do public school. Homeschooling is a great option for the right situation, but can be a disaster waiting to happen in the wrong one.