Tom

JLP in post #32 is exactly right. As a real estate appraiser one of my first steps in performing a property valuation assignment is to determine the rights of ownership to the property being appraised.

Fee simple ownership is typically defined as ownership of the complete bundle of rights included with a parcel of real property with the exception of those property rights nearly always maintained by the government (taxation, eminent domain, police power, and escheat). When you bought your home in an HOA you didn’t buy the complete fee simple interest in your property because some of the property rights were vested in the HOA per the CC&Rs. This should have been disclosed to you when you purchased the property.

I agree with you that many HOA rules and restrictions are asinine but an argument that they shouldn’t be possible is actually an attack on the very idea of property rights. If the different rights of ownership can’t be separately held and transferred the freedom of an individual to own and dispose of their property as they see fit no longer exists.

I hate to disagree with you (I don’t think I have done so before) because you’re one of my favorite online personalities and commentators but when you’re wrong…you’re wrong.

Anyway, this is a good post here and I am for sure going to pass a link on to some friends. I like the way you eloquently worded how regulation imposing horrible HOAs are.

Personally, we have been happy to live in a development with a HOA, for several reasons mentioned by commenters previously on this thread: amenities, maintaining the value of the property; maintaining a clean and orderly environment.

I think I understand how your objection to HOAs fits in with your overall philosophy of life, Connor; but I would feel that my personal rights to choose the kind of living conditions I preferred would be abridged if HOA’s were outlawed.

The point I am making is that the owner of property has the right to sell all or only part of his ownership rights in that property, retaining some of those rights for himself. That, in essence, is what a developer does when setting up an HOA.

I agree that there are reasons to object to HOAs. However, taking the position that HOAs should not exist because they constitute interference with private property rights is not a valid argument.

If your point is that people can boss you around about important stuff, but not about unimportant stuff, I remain confused.

Those and other organizations are voluntary organizations that do nothing to interfere with natural property rights.

If you don’t want to single out HOAs, then your criticism applies equally to any organization that has standards for membership and charges dues. Why stop at HOAs? Why not attack the Boy Scouts, the Kiwanis Club, or the LDS Church?

In terms of personal feelings, I agree with you completely. However, I am a vacant land investor, and occasionally develop land. I have put HOAs in place. Why? My market demanded it.

In one instance, I put together a small development without an HOA. These were individual lots. After selling out most of the lots, I was approached by the lot owners and asked to put an HOA together. Many people have come to expect HOA restrictions, just like they expect zoning to restrict their neighbors actions.

In the case of HOAs, they are put in place by the owner of the land, and others purchase subject to those restrictions. In the case of zoning, governmental agencies have taken private property rights from land owners without just compensation. So, I think an argument can be made that the establishment of HOAs is an exercise of private property rights, while zoning is the confiscation of private property rights.

A few years ago, my wife and I bought a house in a subdivision with an HOA. Prior to moving into the house, someone (anonymously) stuck a note on our garage, informing us we were expected to keep our lawn mowed. My wife was furious. Further, we were informed we could not fence in our yard, to keep our dog in and other dogs out.

No, I don’t like HOAs.

I guess I’m lucky to have friends who had experience with HOA neighborhoods before I ever had to learn by my own experience (and yes, some of my friends like their HOA’s – like Allie does – and even serve on their HOA boards, but I was able to know in advance that an HOA was not a good fit for me).

For a very low monthly fee I have a swimming pool and kiddie pool (in the summer), a hot tub (year round), and a very nice club house with a play room, kitchen, exercise room with full changing rooms/showers. I couldn’t buy a pass to the SDRC for anywhere near the same price. Plus, I can walk to the exercise facilities here, saving gas money.

I have had two complaints made against me while living here. One was because we left our camping trailer in our driveway more than 48 hours in between summer camping trips. And the other is for some pets we have in the back yard.

I got an email asking me to take care of the issues, which I did. I have not been contacted again. It really bothered me (and I think this is my biggest issue with an HOA) that a neighbor would complain to the HOA instead of talking with me directly. I think HOA’s make people feel less neighborly to each other.

If I had it to do over again, I don’t think I would move into an HOA, although this one so far doesn’t seem to be too overbearing. I see garbage cans out on the wrong days pretty regularly, and nothing seems to have come of it yet.

Crafty Bolsheviks and their schemes. Colour schemes.

My only previous experience with an HOA was in the condo we lived at before moving here. The monthly fees were double what they are here (sheesh), but there were hardly any restrictions. Instead, the fee was for an exchange of services rendered by the board to the community citizens.

I didn’t investigate the HOA in the community I live in now, simply because I was not aware that such burdensome restrictions existed. The previous owner from whom I bought my house did not inform me, nor did I think to ask.

So yes, as a buyer, it was my responsibility to do my due diligence and fully investigate this matter, which I did not do. Does that prevent me from having an opinion of HOAs in general, or the power they wield? I think not.

This is the same situation with commenting on the nature of an organization or government you’re not affiliated with. For example, if I talk about the burden of communism under Fidel Castro, some on this thread might use their same arguments to say “well if you don’t like communism, then just don’t move to Cuba”. But these people miss the point: the problem is communism itself, regardless of whether I choose to live under is oppressive rule. Whether I’m a casual observer, participate, or subject, I’m still able to opine on the matter in general and discuss the underlying principles.