so sad–

so unnecessary.

I’m just glad to find Mormons willing to discuss this. I think I might be the only Ron Paul-type pro-life libertarian in our ward, and it gets lonely at times (though my husband and I agree).

About the war.

We had a very close family member join the military right before the very worst in Iraq. This is a person who was taught all about the constitution, etc.

This was very shocking, and much prayer and fasting went into the safety of this young person, who was injured before being deployed.

Injured seriously enough to get an honorable discharge.

Person came home vowing that a dire mistake had been made and would never be committed again, but the fact is that this young person was terribly desperate, having been let go from a much-desired job and not admitted into a much-needed school program.

The desperation in a bad economy was keen.

*We* all (those of us who loved this young person) felt the distress deeply. But the military seemed like a drastic choice, even though scriptures were lovingly packed and temple garments taken along–

glad for the outcome, the sad story is that some of the companions of our family member didn’t make it. Suicide and death–

many were sent to some of the worst places.

I have felt all the possible emotions here. Grief. Anger.

I know that many of these young people are deluded, but good. Some of them are without good standards and ideals and even without appropriate training in what is right and what is wrong.

But most of them really want to be good. Some want to be heroes.

I have swung every which way on this.

The wars are wrong. Wal-Mart (shocking to say it aloud here; will I be sent packing?) is wrong. Our current medical establishment is seriously lacking. Is there anything very ‘right’ in our current society? I don’t think so.

If my fellow church members or my neighbors shop at Wal Mart, which I think is a corporate twin to invasive pre-emptive, illegal wars–

do I shun them? Do I pray that the things they buy at Wal Mart dissolve or explode?

No.

If I have knowledge about something in our society that is grossly wrong; if I have had an experience that is so bad that I want to warn everyone against it–

and *they* go ahead and follow the sad path I would warn them against, do I hope they receive hurt for their heedlessness?

No.

Even though a close family member was damaged in receiving surgery, which caused immediate death–

I continue to pray for the person who is getting surgery in the ward, that all will go well–

and I don’t ‘curse’ my fellow ward members who shop at the big box stores.

It’s a hard situation, being confounded on all sides like this. I think Nephi might have felt it when he was told to kill Laban. I have sorrowed over that.

I hate war. I have suffered directly because of past wars. I have seen much ill come of war and not much good, if any, even in ‘declared’ wars.

But in *my* mind, everyone is a victim.

Or almost everyone. There are those who perpetrate, and God knows who they are, and He will see that they are exposed.

In the meantime, keep seeking for truth–

you are appreciated.

Support the Troops.

Do you think it isn’t incumbent upon the troops to know what it is that they swear an oath to do?

You asked something like this before and I apologize that I forgot to answer. You seem to see it as a black/white contradiction. That the oath to defend the Constitution = disobeying any orders to serve any overseas deployment (correct me if I’m wrong). Not everyone sees it that way. In fact, some think the best way to defend the Constitution, or our form of government, IS to fight the enemies that have openly avowed:

“We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical.” Osama bin Laden
CNN interview 1997

So in many minds, fighting the terrorists is doing just that- defending our Constitution.

Of course, people like you and I accept the truth in Bin Laden’s words. We are aware that our government has strayed far from what the Constitution allows. We suspect (or know) many of our leaders are doing criminal things and undermining our Constitution from within. We take these inside threats to our way of life much more seriously than the threats of the terrorists.

Having said that, we still suffer from external threats. So we still need our military. And hopefully we can have a military that contains righteous individuals that have good judgment. We just need them to be used correctly- in my opinion that’s for a strong defense here at home and not for aggressive action around the world.

As to placing some of the responsibility for the war upon the shoulders of the soldiers themselves, I understand your feeling. I know some members of the military who seem eager to kill (in a revengeful sort of way) and it makes me mad. I realize they are probably not seeing the whole picture but it still really bothers me. But then I know others who are some of the best people I’ve known and they have no desire to further the causes of this unjust conflict we are engaged in. Could they get out? I suppose so. It would not be easy and there would be punishment and sacrifice. But many of them feel the need to stay. I can’t explain it. But I would not condemn them for it. Everyone has his own destiny to follow and perhaps they can do some good in a bad situation. Does that justify the bad decisions of our politicians? Certainly not. That is why I still think we should be doing all we can to get our country out of this mess. But in the meantime, I know God knows their hearts and whether they deserve some of the blame or not. He’ll sort it all out someday.

Kelly, you say:

I could not, in good conscience, support “our” troops, while not also supporting the innocent Afghanis and Iraqis

Well, I could not agree more with that. I loved it when Pres. Hinckley reminded us “There are other mothers, innocent civilians, who cling to their children with fear and look heavenward with desperate pleadings as the earth shakes beneath their feet and deadly rockets scream through the dark sky”. I especially feel for those who experience the fighting in their own lands- their own backyards. How difficult that would be. It truly makes my heart ache. I want it to be over for everyone. It’s all so unproductive and wasteful.

And since this comment is already a novel, I wanted to add an example of how I mentioned Ron Paul’s compassion for and commitment to the troops guides his decisions.

In 2005, he introduced legislation designed to postpone military base closures in the United States. He said, “We should not be shutting down domestic bases that provide critical support for our troops who are fighting in places like Iraq and Afghanistan”.

No one could be said to be more against the wars than this man. And yet, he knows while they’re there, they deserve our support.

If this be the case, how about “supporting” the innocent women and children that are being killed because of our military machine?

I could not, in good conscience, support “our” troops, while not also supporting the innocent Afghanis and Iraqis.

I hope you don’t take my words as personal or meaning to offend. Some of what I say is to play the devil’s advocate. Some of what I say is what I really feel. I like this place because most people here are pretty even tempered and debate in a civil way. If I ever get out of line in that respect, please tell me. I have no need to make enemies out of anyone.

Our welfare state is wrong. No doubt about it. But he doesn’t seek to punish the masses (regardless of their ignorance or their willing compliance in using state assistance) by immediately shutting down all social programs. Mercy and reality seem to guide him in deciding how he would implement those ideals.

Kelly- will depriving our troops of weapons help end this conflict and bring them home? Or will it just increase their mortality rate?

Agreed, naturally. First, the best way to “support the troops” as human beings is to keep them from being troops for as long as possible, out of danger. It does disgust me that we have a society where some people are forced to join a military to make ends meet – where is the logic there?

The reason that we are told to “support the troops” is pretty simple: it’s code for “support any and all military action our superiors see fit to foist on us.” Play off of the human tendency to minimize small risks and kill however many hundred thousands of people under the guise of fighting terrorism, sure. But perpetual war for perpetual peace doesn’t support the troops – it puts them in danger and creates more enemies for them and their children and their grandchildren to fight in another convenient war down the line.

But as long as they’re fighting I think it’s decent to do what the most self-righteous “patriotic” war-mongers rarely seem fit to do, even in this age of military spending sinkholes – give them the armor and weapons they need to stay safe, while still holding those accountable who use them in a criminal manner.