Of course entitilements play a role and I believe that needs to be addressed before we can begin to evaluate with a clear mind the immigration issue. I do like what Connor has written here, but to debate this issue while presently living in a full-on welfare state is like debating how to create planets before Judgment Day…pointless.

Naysayers notwithstanding, Connor you have assembled an excellent piece of research and made the correct conclusions from an economical point of view.

Furthermore, I agree that most immigrants likely come to the country much more appreciative of the democratic freedoms it provides than most citizens.

Why are people harping on the “security” thing when the evidence clearly shows that if someone should be excluded based on birthplace it should be US-born who are kept a closer watch on than the immigrants — again, the few drug gangs notwithstanding.

And, one might add, that it is precisely the willingness of American citizens to break the laws of their own country and buy illegal drugs that give those few drug gangs such a ready access to the country.

However you try to cut this issue, Nation-State borders and border controls have never done anything but harm productivity and effective division of labor, and as a consequence of that, has created a wildly distorted distribution of wealth.

The alternatives before el Norte (which in this case can be a stand-in for Europe as well as Northern America) are: to redivide labor (end unfair subsidies) and redistribute wealth (allow free trade and labor movement) voluntarily — or have them done violently. I’m not threatening anyone, that is, that is just the result of economics and demographics.

And why, pray tell, would the immigrants somehow “dilute” American culture when we know they usually study and work more diligently than the “natural borns”.

The only actual danger is that if they’re driven too far from the native citizens they may gather into blocks of mono-cultural (non-English-speaking) ghettoes and build a culture of their own, much like the Muslims in some European countries have done. But that has been mainly because the European “master race” has just wanted the cheap labor of the parents, forgetting that the situation of the children may hugely disillusion them.

As it is, in Germany for one, one of Middle-Eastern extraction has almost no way of achieving a college degree without superhuman effort.

The first product of peace mentioned is open migration between the inhabitants of each distinct civilization. Free intercourse and commerce have special mention, and are corollaries to the unrestricted ability to travel and reside where one pleases. Second, the record notes that this exchange between the individuals of each group yielded increased prosperity for all involved. They became “exceedingly rich” and had “an exceeding plenty”. . . the principle contained in this ideal snapshot of liberty and prosperity should be sincerely scrutinized in order to find out how we can apply it to ourselves and produce similar results.

The “peace” mentioned in the scripture above seems to be the result of the experience cited near the end of Helaman 5 (see especially verse 47).

Just a thought…

“…The common law has affixed such distinct and appropriate ideas to the terms denization, and naturalization, that they can not be confounded together, or mistaken for each other in any legal transaction whatever. They are so absolutely distinct in their natures, that in England the rights they convey, can not both b…e given by the same power; the king can make denizens, by his grant, or letters patent, but nothing but an act of parliament can make a naturalized subject. This was the legal state of this subject in Virginia, when the federal constitution was adopted; it declares that congress shalt have power to establish an uniform rule of naturalization; throughout the United States; but it also further declares, that the powers not delegated by the constitution to the U. States, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states, respectively, or to the people. The power of naturalization, and not that of denization, being delegated to congress, and the power of denization not being prohibited to the states by the constitution, that power ought not to be considered as given to congress, but, on the contrary, as being reserved to the states…”

@Felipe:
Your analogy is false, for the simple reason that one involves God’s law (always just by definition) and man’s law (not always just). Also, just because “both parties have good policies” in a general sense, it does not follow that a specific policy of either party is “good,” and in many cases, I would say that NEITHER of the two major parties are correct in their policy proposals.

Another point is that we don’t know that Pres. Monson sent E’ Jensen to say that we needed compassion. He reiterated in his remarks that the Church had no official position and that he was speaking for himself. The Church also sent a representative as an observer only to the inter-faith panel on immigration last week. The letter sent from the first Presidency before primary season said that both parties had good policies and invited members to participate actively. So, despite of what E’Jensen said, it is possible to hold the conservative view and not risk your salvation.

I understand that the problem is big, and the vast majority of people come here looking for a chance to make money. The truth is that many husbands come here without their families just to work and send money back home. Wouldn’t it be more compassionate to send them home so they can be with their families and raise their children? The gov. of Mexico doesn’t care about the rights of their citizens that are here illegally. They just don’t want to loose the billions that fathers and sons send back to Mexico every week to their families. That is a huge chunk of their economy.

If we want to open the borders for poor people to come here and enjoy the blessings, then we have to figure out a fair way. It is unfair that only some Mexicans can make it. They have an unfair advantage because their country is right south from the US. Also, people from norther states in Mexico have more chances. How about the poor peasants in Asia, people from Africa and other countries in Latin America? Should they have an opportunity to pursue a better life in the United States. If we are going to have open borders, it is not fair that only Mexicans can come. People from all over the world should be able to afford a trip to the US. It is only fair.

By the sweat of your brow shall you eat bread.

If I’m making a cheese sauce and I add in different kinds of cheeses, it will melt and create a new flavor. But it is still a cheese sauce.

If I add other sauces (like tomato sauce) it may or may not continue to function in the same way as a cheese sauce. But as long as it is kept to a minimum, it enriches and enlivens the sauce.

If I add herbs and spices, some melt or dissolve. Others add texture, color, and flavor. But the overall function of the sauce is still the same.

If, however, I add half as much tomato sauce as the cheese sauce already in the pot, there is a problem there. It is no longer a cheese sauce.

Worst: If I add chunks of strong flavored meat into the sauce, it not only doesn’t melt. But it so overpowers the cheese flavor that it doesn’t even taste like a cheese sauce.

Without a doubt immigrants of other cultures can enhance ours. I welcome them under any system of laws. If they however they choose to overpower our culture with the one they just came from, I have to ask why they left the other country. If it was so great, why did they leave?

One Russian immigrant (some years after the dissolution of the USSR) told me her husband kept an old flag of the hammer and sickle in his house. He would drink a glass of vodka to it EVERY night saying how glorious it was. I had to wonder why he was living in the US. Here was a man who refused to melt.

I don’t get offended easily. And I wasn’t offended here.

It does, however, bother me when people try to deny God had a hand in creating America (not that you did). So, I just want to remind people about that from time to time.

At the same time, I also don’t like it when people try to “shove God down my throat”. So, I tried being as broad and generic as possible.

You asked how immigration is unnatural. I don’t think itis. I was addressing the issue of percentages. In the early days, the vast majority of immigrants were those with similar ideologies as the people who had already immigrated. And the ratio of 2nd generation or later Americans vs. 1st generation immigrants was still high.

Today, the 1st generation immigrant is making up a HUGE percentage of the population. And the vast majority of that pupulation is of differing ideologies than the Average American.

I don’t know how this will pan out. It could be good. It could be bad. But historically, it is not a good thing to RADICALLY change the ideology of a country so QUICKLY.

Whatever the immigration policies were in those early years, they were welcomed, and they complied with the requirements.

Had I experienced the misfortune of being born in circumstances similar to those of these modern immigrants, I too would be risking life and limb to come to this land, warts and all, that is still a land of promise.

I vote for amnesty and for more generous long-term immigration policies.

I tried to “disagree” with item two as softly as I could. In fact I was not trying to reject the idea so much as to suggest that it might bear some rewording if we were using it to define what constitutes a real American. I’m sorry if that suggestion offended you.

Yup, it looks like I mixed you two up in my notes. I have limited internet, so things happen.

If you disagree with item #2, you probably don’t fully understand point #1. The history of our laws goes back to English common law which has its roots in several religion, not the least of which is the Law of Moses. In fact most laws that we commonly understand (not the ones where we say, “Who thought of that stupid law”) have their roots in the Law of Moses. Interesting side note: many countries will have their common law roots in either the Law of Moses or the Code of Hammurabi.

Besides that, the spirit of being an American is believing in the “generic” American religion. That definition is a rough paraphrase of something Benjamin Franklin proposed as the religion to teach the Native Americans as they invited them to be a part of the country. Yes, the founders decided it was important that all citizens have an understanding of God. It was not required to believe. It was only required to understand the principle. This was the guiding light of how we are to behave toward each other. No, it was not law. But it was policy.

It is so generic that even atheists can believe in a parallel idea. They may not call it “God”, but they believe in some force of good that will motivate and unite, be it personal code of ethics or whatever they will. But the key ideas are unity and service. Not as the government dictates, but as individuals and societal consensus does.

Freedom/Righteousness cycle:

I NEVER said that government decides when to give freedoms. God does. This is why I cited the Book of Mormon. You’d think that you would have understood this from the reference. But it looks like you were hell-bent on finding fault with my argument rather than trying to understand what I was talking about. It is the natural evolution of societies that determines how much freedom they have. I even stated as a premise that we start off with basic freedoms regardless of what we’ve earned. These freedoms are Life, Liberty, & Property. From that basic point, it is how we treat those freedoms that determine what further freedoms we as a society can enjoy.

I recall the joke, “You think we live in a free country or something. But we live in America, where one idiot can ruin it for the rest of us.” What this referred to was some laws that were made because some people took basic freedoms a little too far with disastrous consequences. So the law (unable to make value judgments) had to remove that freedom for everyone in every condition. Try to tell me this has never happened in America.

Additionally, no one has even mentioned the point that we are talking about interactions with a different country. The Constitution doesn’t have power there. Further, any organization has every right to decide who is a “member” of their club and the mechanisms of that membership. Do we not as citizens of a nation or state have a collective right to recognize who is a member of our group? And do we not have a right to decide by what criteria we make that judgment and the procedures to obtain membership? So it is with states and citizenship. One reason why citizenship laws are the way they are, a person can exercise some legal leger-de-main to gain privileges of multiple citizenships and no responsibilities of any of them. They just have to produce the right passport to the right official.

No, I believe that when we are talking about relations with other countries where the Constitution doesn’t have jurisdiction, order is an equal partner with freedom. And with the current state of things, we have the worst of both.

That said, I do agree that current immigration laws are too stringent. I tried helping a cousin figure out immigration laws to get her citizenship. I couldn’t figure out how to do it. It seemed like she couldn’t become a citizen as far as I could tell. With this level of difficulty, it is no wonder why people come here illegally.

Fixed the typo. I hope that helps resolve your crisis. ;)

Now I don’t know what to believe.