Um, really? What of continuing revelation, where new commandments may be given that trump the old? When Nephi was commanded to slay Laban, despite the “thou shalt not kill” mandate, did he go inactive?

Polygamy is another convenient one that we are embarrased by and a mere, disowning of it today…

I don’t know that we, collectively, are embarrassed by polygamy. If God commanded it, so be it. As Joseph Smith said, whatever God commands is right. There’s no reason to be embarrassed for polygamy, nor for God commanding entire cities to be destroyed. He obviously has His reasons.

Polygamy is another convenient one that we are embarrased by and a mere, disowning of it today , by saying memebers who pracitce it are ex communicated. doesnt really wash As Joseph Smith Brigham young had many wives .

As to it never being bad to follow the prophet, I would say that in any single instance, no, of course it isn’t. I do not believe that Curtis is saying that following the prophet’s words will bring harm to anyone, but that if they follow blindly, for all of their days, never forging a realtionship themselves with the Spirit, never seeking that sacred confirmation, then , yes, I can see how that would be suboptimal, if not even detrimental to the individual’s eternal progress.

There is, though, a confirmation that comes from the doing itself. As these hypothetical people who blindly follow perform the actions instructed by the prophet, they can not help but feel the confirmation of their actions, if only by the lack of the Spirit whispering “No.”

So, if it were possible to abdicate all sensation of the guidance of/confirmation by the Spirit, and follow blindly for all of one’s days, then I would very much agree that that is not good for the individual, but I have faith that the Spirit is stronger than that, and that it provides the assurance needed, in whatever small way that individual may require, to support their decision to follow the prophet. We all receive our guidance and confirmation in the way that we need to, and to some, others’ faith may seem so small is to be indetectible, but we are unique creatures, varied along many spectrums, and my guess is that their own connection to the Lord, to the degree that they need it, is there. Simple faith is just as enduring eternally than that which has been well-probed and deeply examined.

“Your quotes deal more with areas outside official statements, doctrine, and church talks. The quotes I cited were from official church publications and conferences.”

Ah, so your quotes are better than my quotes? Maybe so, but can you wiggle your ears?

None of the quotes you provided were from the President of the Church while he was the President of the Church. Pres. Benson never addressed socialism/communism specifically in any of his speeches as the President of the Church as far as I can tell. You provided no quotes from official declarations or first presidency statements or more importantly, from our cannonized scripture that forms the foundation of binding doctrine in our Church, that tells me that I cannot with a clear conscience support socialist policies. What you have provided was a lot of statements from our leaders who were stating their views on politics, outside of the established doctrine of the Church.

we need to let our minds do some thinking outside of the box sometimes. As Hugh B. Brown said somewhere, it is better for us to have heterodoxic thoughts than to have no thoughts at all.

Sorry for not providing sources. All of those quotes are googleable. Sorry for the “horrible” missapplications of my quotes. I’ll try to engage only in decent missapplication from here on.

As far as blaming much of the world’s problems on the US, I speak specifically of the problems we have directly caused such as the overthrowing of democratically elected governments like that of Guatemala in the 1950′s which led to the military dictatorship which killed about 200,000 people over the next couple of decades while our multinational corporations went in and made bank on the backs of the poor and oppressed there. I’m not blaming anything on the US it doesn’t deserve. Check the history books.

Then how do you discern when not to follow the Prophet’s counsel? And why would you do such a thing? When the Prophet of God, in authority of his office, issues any commandment, counsel, or statement, isn’t that the mind and will of God? And if you don’t believe so, how do you discern when it is and when it isn’t?

I think that the intelligent member of the Church has to realize though that often our positions change with the times… showing a lack of inspiration in some areas.

What’s wrong w/ the position changing? Didn’t God say in D&C 1 that this was the only true and living church? As we become more righteous (or not) and are able to receive more revelation, added blessings (or the opposite), wouldn’t that necessitate a change? I don’t think any bit of the change we’ve seen shows a lack of inspiration, and I think that if you’re saying our Prophet lacks inspiration in how he directs the church, you’re on shaky ground…

Too often, in fact way too often, the people in the Church use their belief in the Prophet to blindly follow all that he says… and forfeit their own relationship with the Lord.

Indeed, we should all fortify our own relationship in the world, but I think it’s a preposterous notion that suggests that any member would suffer spiritually (or otherwise) by explicitly following the prophet, blindly or not. You can’t go wrong in such a course of action.

Blindly following after prophets is not a good thing, even if a prophet is correct all of the time.

I disagree. Blindly following the prophet is a good thing, whereas following the Prophet after receiving your own witness to the course’s truthfulness is a better thing. Let’s make sure we all understand that it is good for everybody to follow the Prophet! Even those doing so blindly will be blessed, though added blessings and strength come from doing so with your eyes open wide. Perhaps it’s just an issue of semantics, but you can not go wrong by following the Prophet.

Regarding your quotes, I think the majority are horribly misapplied. First, please cite sources when possible for all quotes you’re using to add legitimacy to their origin. But most of the quotes you mentioned, which specify the need to not believe everything a Prophet or GA says, have more to do with everything they say rather than what they say when in the “line of duty”.

Joseph Smith ran into this issue quite frequently, when people would have a certain notion in their mind of what a Prophet should be like, say, do, etc. When he was at home washing laundry, he was just another guy. But when he stood up at the pulpit in the office of a Prophet, rest assured you can take whatever he said to the bank.

Your quotes deal more with areas outside official statements, doctrine, and church talks. The quotes I cited were from official church publications and conferences. Therefore, they are not to be casually disregarded as you seem to wish to do. These men made such statements in the office and with the authority of their calling, and their words stands as a witness to either be believed and obeyed, or not.

Although I personally see many of the problems with socialism that Connor has pointed out, I was reading Curtis’ comments with some sympathy until I came to the last paragraph of comment #18. I’m afraid that to me it seems like he is blaming the U.S. for all the things that have gone wrong in other countries (including the deaths of millions) , while praising a demagogue who aspires to become the Castro of South America.

As the years have gone by, I have tended to care less about what form of government a country has, and more about how free its citizens are to listen to our missionaries, and live the principles of the Restored Gospel.

Regarding following the prophets, I’m with those who think it is crucial to follow the counsel of the living prophets.

At various times in my life I have abandoned strongly-held views as soon as a living prophet has spoken against them. At times I didn’t understand exactly why a particular stand on an issue was the best one. But I had a testimony that the prophet really was a prophet.

The key for me has always been the statement by Harold B. Lee which Connor quoted in comment #11: “You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life… Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow… Let’s keep our eye on the President of the Church. (Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152-153).”

From BH Roberts:

“The Church has confined the sources of doctrine by which it is willing to be bound before the world to the things that God has revealed, and which the Church has officially accepted, and those alone. These would include the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price; these have been repeatedly accepted and endorsed by the Church in general conference assembled, and are the only sources of absolute appeal for our doctrine.”

And from Bruce R McKonkie:

“The books, writings, explanations, expositions, views, and theories of even the wisest and greatest men, either in or out of the Church, do not rank with the standard works. Even the writings, teachings, and opinions of the prophets of God are acceptable only to the extent they are in harmony with what God has revealed and what is recorded in the standard works.”

Brigham Young said:

“It is not sufficient to quote sayings purported to come from Joseph Smith or Brigham Young upon matters of doctrine. Our own people also need instruction and correction in respect of this. It is common to hear some of our older brethren say, ‘But I heard Brother Joseph myself say so,’ or ‘Brother Brigham preached it; I heard him.’ But that is not the question. The question is has God said it? Was the prophet speaking officially? . . . As to the printed discourses of even leading brethren, the same principle holds. They do not constitute the court of ultimate appeal on doctrine. They may be very useful in the way of elucidation and are very generally good and sound in doctrine, but they are not the ultimate sources of the doctrines of the Church, and are not binding upon the Church. The rule in that respect is—What God has spoken, and what has been accepted by the Church as the word of God, by that, and that only, are we bound in doctrine.”

Bruce R. McKonkie said:

“With all their inspiration and greatness, prophets are yet mortal men with imperfections common to mankind in general. They have their opinions and prejudices and are left to work out their own problems without inspiration in many instances. Joseph Smith recorded that he “visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that ‘a prophet is always a prophet’; but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such.”

We are all influenced by our environment, our experience. As Pres. Hinckley said of Pres. Benson, “I am confident that it was out of what he saw of the bitter fruit of dictatorship that he developed his strong feelings, almost hatred, for communism and socialism. That distaste grew through the years as he witnessed the heavy-handed oppression and suffering of the peoples of eastern Europe under what he repeatedly described as godless communism.”

How would Pres. Benson’s views have been had he lived in Venezuela the last 6 years as socialism has done marvels for the people down there, or how would he be affected by the constant drive for profits in US Corporations which lead to the overthrow of democracies around the world and end up in the shedding of blood of millions of people as leftist and socialist leaders are overthrown by our government in favor of someone like the lovely Pinochet? Perhaps then he would have grown up speaking against the evils of the secret combinations sprouting from our own nation instead.

Joseph Smith taught us that we need to seek after the Spirit (meaning the Spirit of Christ that we covenant to receive during the Sacrament each week) above all other things and it will lead us aright. Yet, I see in Church way too many foolish virgins. People who are good at heart, which is why they are compared to virgins in the parable, but foolish because they will not take the Holy Spirit for their guide, which Holy Spirit will get them into the Celestial Kingdom if it is followed as it is the law by which all things are governed.

Blindly following after prophets is not a good thing, even if a prophet is correct all of the time. I would be surprised though if there was such a president of this Church that was right all of the time.

Brigham Young said:

“No matter what the king does, we as his subjects must say that the king does right and cannot do wrong. That you know very well to be the feelings and teachings of the nations of the earth. The king cannot do wrong, and of course he is not to be rebuked. And when he sends his princes, his ministers, his messengers, to perform duties for him, they say to the people to whom they go-”The king can do no wrong; his agents can do no wrong.” . . . These are the feelings and these the teachings and belief, and not only the belief, but the practice. It is not so in this kingdom; it must not be so; it cannot be so; it has not been so;”

-Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:364-65

Jonah fled from the Lord. Lehi complained against the Lord when there was no food. Peter and Paul argued with each other (weren’t they supposed to be inspired by the same Spirit?). Joseph Smith called every Indian he saw a Lamanite though we now know that to be untrue.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, authorized by the First Presidency says, “There are many subjects about which the scriptures are not clear and about which the Church has made no official pronouncements. In such matters one can find differences of opinion among Church members and leaders. Until the truth of these matters is made known by revelation, there is room for different levels of understanding and interpretation of unsettled issues.”

I think that socialism is one of these unsettled issues. You have one opinion of it and I have another. There is no official declaration by the Church on the issue as far as I know. Just because something is said of it in General Conference or stated by a General Authority does not mean it is God’s own truth. Harold B. Lee said:

“It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they write.”

Joseph F. McKonkie said that to claim that anything taught in General Conference is official doctrine, “makes the place something is said, rather than what is said the standard of truth. Nor is something doctrine simply because it was said by someone who holds a particular office or position. Truth is not an office or position to which one is ordained.”

Harold B. Lee expressed similar thoughts when he taught that any doctrine, advanced by anyone—regardless of position—that was not supported by the standard works, then “you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion.” He recognized that the Prophet could bring forth new doctrine, but “when he does, [he] will declare it as revelation from God,” after which it will be sustained by the body of Church.

Statements by those in authority in our Church on Birth Control for example, are instrumental in showing how our leaders are influenced by their upbringing and culture and don’t always speak absolute truth, even at the pulpit. Was it revelation that said birth control is an abomination in the earlier days of the Church and now says that it is perfectly fine and is up to the parents?

I took offense at Connor’s questioning of my loyalty to the Church and I shouldn’t have. I apologize if I gave offense as well.

I hope you can see where I am coming from and why I still think my loyalty to the Gospel is not affected by my support for socialism. Until I receive revelation opposing my view, or the Prophet declares official doctrine as given by the Lord opposing my view, I remain defiant.

One little question for you Connor, so I can see how opposed to socialism you are. Is it wrong for the government to offer assistance to foreign nations experiencing disaster from natural calamities such as the Tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands? The government is taking your tax money and forcing you to do good with it.

Redundant.

Well, hmm, not exactly redundant; certainly inherent, as the former is a subset of the latter.

A few related quotes for the interested reader:

There will be times when we follow the prophets even as they are in the very act of obedience themselves; they will not, in fact, always be able to explain to us why they are doing what they are doing— much as Adam offered sacrifices without a full understanding of what underlay that special ritual. (Neal A. Maxwell, “Follow the Brethren”)

You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life… Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow… Let’s keep our eye on the President of the Church. (Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152-153)

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this church to lead you astray. (Wilford Woodruff, Official Declaration 1)

I have never been very particular to determine when [Church leaders] were speaking as prophets of God and when they were speaking as men. It has never occurred to me that I had the ability to determine that. It has been the rule of my life to find out if I could, by listening closely to what they said and by asking the Lord to help me interpret it, what they had in mind for the Latter-day Saints to do and then do it. I am happy to say, not boastfully but gratefully, that I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional or political life. (Marion G. Romney, Conference Report April 1941 p. 123)

The only safety and security there is in this Church is in listening to the words that come from the prophets of the Lord, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself. And they have spoken; they have told us to prepare, and it is not for us to argue whether we should or whether we should not. We have the prophets today telling is what our responsibility is here and now. God help us not to turn deaf ears, but go out while the harvest is yet possible and build on a foundation such that when the rains descend, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat on the house, our house will have stone walls. (Matthew Cowley, “Matthew Cowley Speaks”, 1954)

I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home….Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: “My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.” Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, “But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray. (Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1, p. 78)

…thou shalt give heed unto all [the Prophet's] words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; (D&C 21:4)

I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 13:95)

A man said to me… “You know, there are people in our state who believe in following the Prophet in everything they think is right, but when it is something they think isn’t right, and it doesn’t appeal to them, then that’s different.” He said, “Then they become their own prophet. They decide what the Lord wants and what the Lord doesn’t want.”

I thought how true, and how serious when we begin to choose which of the covenants, which of the commandments we will keep and follow. When we decide that there are some of them that we will not keep or follow, we are taking the law of the Lord into our own hands and become our own prophets, and believe me, we will be led astray, because we are false prophets to ourselves when we do not to follow the Prophet of God. No, we should never discriminate between these commandments, as to those we should and should not keep. (Conference Report, October 1966, p. 98)

So yes, Curtis, I do and will continue to stick to following every word which proceeds forth from the Prophet’s mouth. In such a course of action I will find security, blessings, and spiritual growth. Sure, men are fallible, but when the Prophet of God stands over the pulpit to act in the authority of his office, what he says is the word of God.

When he’s speaking over the pulpit, and his words published in the official Church publication, rest assured that he’s acting like one. Point six of Pres. Benson’s “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet” addresses this issue:

The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel, but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, “Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you” (D&C 21:4).

And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states: “Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed”.

Said Brigham Young, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture” (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot], 13:95).

If you took every word that ever came over the pulpit from a general authority as revelation from God, you’d have to leave the Church if you had any integrity since so much changes over time.

I disagree. So long as you follow current teachings and counsel, as well as those that have no been revoked or changed, you will not go astray. W. John Walsh addresses this issue in this article:

If you truly come to the conclusion that one Church leader disagreed with another on behavior, always follow the teachings of the present prophet. The Lord has people obey different laws at different times. For example, Moses commanded the people to practice animal sacrifice. Today, we don’t follow this practice. However, you should also ask yourself whether there is a true disagreement. The commandments of the Lord are in place until revoked by God. If a commandment has not been explicitly changed, then it is still in force. At general conference, you will repeatedly hear Church leaders stress this fact. A teaching does not go away by default. If a commandment is to be changed or revoked, it will happen explicitly.

You’ve got to base your testimony on Christ, not men. You will go wrong when you cease to follow Christ.

Very true. And we learn of Christ’s will for us through his prophets.

I know what Benson and others have said on the subject, I’ve just never really agreed with them.

Many people dislike when a Prophet delves into political and temporal affairs. A few quotes on the subject come to mind. The first is from Brigham Young:

Some of the leading men in Kirtland were much opposed to Joseph the Prophet, meddling with temporal affairs… .

In a public meeting of the Saints, I said, “Ye Elders of Israel…. will some of you draw the line of demarcation, between the spiritual and temporal in the Kingdom of God, so that I may understand it?” Not one of them could do it….

I defy any man on earth to point out the path a Prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be. (Journal of Discourses, 10:363-364)

The next is from everybody’s favorite, Pres. Benson:

As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words, but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out.

As we come closer to the Lord’s second coming, you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them. (Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet, February 26, 1980)

Then there’s Harold B. Lee:

You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life… Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow… Let’s keep our eye on the President of the Church. (Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152-153)

My concern is that as things get harder (and they most certainly will!), it’s not going to become easier to obey and follow the Prophet. He will most assuredly ask certain things of us that will be inconvenient and difficult. Many will disagree (politicall, socially, economically) to what he asks. But as Pres. Lee suggested, our safety depends on following the living Prophet. I believe we must shed our pride and do as the Prophet suggests.

Jeff,

The two prophets you love to quote on this issue are President Benson and President Hunter. The quotes seem to all come from the Cold War era in the US, where Communism was the great evil of the day. Could you possibly quote a prophet since the end of the Cold War who has been so adamantly opposed to all forms Socialism like you suggest?

Unless there has been any successive revelations or statements reversing the ones I’ve quoted by these “Cold War era” Church leaders, I believe that they still stand. Do we not observe pervasive socialism in our government today? Are the words of these Prophets null and void, simply because the Iron Curtain fell? Is there not still communism today?

I realize that it’s easy to “humanize” some things our Prophets have said, attributing them to the “times they lived in”, rather than believing that such statements still have applicability in our day. But unless contradictory revelation has been received, or a successive leader has come out to reverse the previous statement, then it still stands.

Whether or not the context of Pres. Hunter’s quote has anything to do with him being a “product of his generation”, I find direct application to the present state of our government in his wise words. Joseph Smith was equally a “product of his generation” – do his statements, revelations, and teachings lose pertinence with time?

Naiah,

Like I said, having put the aid of the gospel into what is usually a secular humanitarian light gives me (in my mind and observance of social ‘rules’) new license to speak freely gospel answers to human problems.

I love doing exactly this. In my conversations w/ people, the gospel is so interwoven into anything else to the point where it becomes nearly inseparable. Granted, I cut back when I’m talking to somebody who flat out disagrees, or doesn’t understand the gospel (or isn’t a member of the Church), since meat before milk is detrimental and downright confusing. But when talking with like-minded individuals, friends, and family members, gospel-centric conversation is the name of the game!

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/09/1526251

Thanks for your comments.