January 15th, 2007

Luciferianism

Chain

Satan (Lucifer) is not a person I like talking about. However, I think his purpose and practices are widely misunderstood, even among Latter-day Saints. And so, prompted by this month’s First Presidency Message by James E. Faust titled “The Forces that Will Save Us” (originally printed in 1987 as “The Great Imitator”), I figured I’d share a few of my thoughts on the matter.

Echoing President Faust’s sentiments, I feel to begin with his own words:

I feel impressed to sound a warning voice against the devil and his angels—the source and mainspring of all evil. I approach this prayerfully, because Satan is not an enlightening subject.

The following are select verses and quotes dealing with “the great imitator”.

…Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.
…Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. (Moses 1:12, 19)

From these two verses we learn that Satan is an imitator. Having sought evil and falling from his position, he now seeks to make us miserable as he is. His method is imitation. As Pres. Faust writes, “Satan [is] the great imitator, the master deceiver, the arch counterfeiter, and the great forger.”

Echoing Satan’s method of imitation for destruction, the First Presidency issued a message in 1942 stating the following:

[Satan] plans to destroy liberty and freedom—economic, political, and religious, and to set up in place thereof the greatest, most widespread, and most complete tyranny that has ever oppressed men. He is working under such perfect disguise that many do not recognize either him or his methods. There is no crime he would not commit, no debauchery he would not set up, no plague he would not send, no heart he would not break, no life he would not take, no soul he would not destroy. He comes as a thief in the night; he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Without their knowing it, the people are being urged down paths that lead only to destruction. Satan never before had so firm a grip on this generation as he has now…. (Conference Report, Oct. 1942, pp. 13, 15, emphasis mine)

The most important message conveyed in this statement by prophets of God is the fact that Satan is working in excellent disguise. Many have listened to his whisperings and are convinced that all is well in Zion. Satan’s method of denying his own existence to ensare us with a flaxen cord is supported by the following quote:

It must be remembered that the first job of any conspiracy, whether it be in politics, crime, or within a business office, is to convince everyone else that no conspiracy exists. The conspirators’ success will be determined largely by their ability to do this. That the elite of the academic world and mass communications media always pooh-pooh the existence of the Insiders merely serves to camouflage their operations. Gary Allen, None Dare Call It Conspiracy, p. 17)

The fact that “conspiracy theorists” are written off as mentally instable persons only lends further support to the fact that Satan is winning the hearts of the children of men. They are convinced he doesn’t exist and that conspiracies are an imagination of deranged minds.

As the First Presidency in 1942 stated, Satan is behind all evil in our day, seeking to bind us down with the chains of hell. Joseph Fielding Smith agreed:

Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, and confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the president of the United States; it is not Hitler; it is not Mussolini; it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Source: Doctrines of Salvation, 3:315, emphasis mine)

His son-in-law, Elder Bruce R. McConkie, agreed:

Gadianton robbers fill the judgment seats in many nations. An evil power seeks to overthrow the freedom of all nations and countries. Satan reigns in the hearts of men; it is the great day of his power. (Bruce R. McConkie, Source: “The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory,” Ensign, May 1980, p.73)

Those who are endowed have additional knowledge as to Satan’s purposes and methods. Next time you are doing an endowment session, pay close attention to the words he says and you’ll realize exactly what methods Satan has employed in our day to achieve his goals. It becomes incumbent, once realizing his methods, to learn the specifics of his approach and through whom he is achieving his goals.

In the book of Ether we learn that Satan has employed the same methods since the beginning:

And it came to pass that thus they did agree with Akish. And Akish did administer unto them the oaths which were given by them of old who also sought power, which had been handed down even from Cain, who was a murderer from the beginning.
And they were kept up by the power of the devil to administer these oaths unto the people, to keep them in darkness, to help such as sought power to gain power, and to murder, and to plunder, and to lie, and to commit all manner of wickedness and whoredoms.
And it came to pass that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God;
For the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that man should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man.
And now I, Moroni, do not write the manner of their oaths and combinations, for it hath been made known unto me that they are had among all people, and they are had among the Lamanites.
And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking, and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.
And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.
Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.
Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning. (Ether 8:15-16, 18-25, emphasis mine)

The Lord, through his prophet Moroni, tells us here that the secret combination instituted and supported by Satan shall be among us. Satan is actively seeking to bring about the destruction of freedom and liberty in all nations. This is happening today. Those who disagree obviously do not believe that the Book of Mormon was written for our day.

It is interesting to note the strong language used in the above passage. We are not encouraged to learn about these things—we are commanded to “awake to a sense of [our] awful situation. Again, we are commanded to learn about these things which are of large consequence. We can’t ignore them or treat them lightly.

President Ezra Taft Benson, commenting on the secret combination mentioned in these verses, said:

I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. (See D&C 1:14-16; D&C 84:49-53.) It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (See Ether 8:18-25.) (Ezra Taft Benson, “I Testify”)

Perhaps the best description of Satan’s secret combinations, with the exception of Ether 8, can be found in the latter half of Moses, chapter 5. Verse 53 describes luciferianism as being a male-only covenant:

And among the daughters of men these things were not spoken, because that Lamech had spoken the secret unto his wives, and they rebelled against him, and declared these things abroad, and had not compassion; (Moses 5:53)

Verse 52 indicates that Satan’s covenants and works were “spread among all the sons of men”. Three verses later, we learn that the works of darkness “prevail[ed]” among them. Then in chapter 6, verse 15, we read that Satan had “great dominion” among men. This state of progression shows not only how the world was in its early days, but how it is today.

The fact that so few people are aware of Satan and his tactics only testifies of the success he has enjoyed in blinding our eyes and hardening our hearts. For that reason we must “awake to a sense of [our] awful situation” and waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness.

Read quotes about “Satan” (eek?) on Quoty

40 Responses to “Luciferianism”

  1. Kelly Winterton
    January 15, 2007 at 11:49 am #

    Connor,

    Super-good post! I’ll plug Jack Monnett’s book also. It was a great read. Anyone wants to borrow my book, just e-mail me.

    Studying up on this subject, it was an eye-opener to me that there are indeed groups among us that actually do worship Lucifer. (Skull and Bones, Masons, Illuminati……) But to make it more understandable as to how someone could worship Lucifer over the teachings of Christ, it helped me to learn a basic principle of Luciferianism. Lucifer visited Adam and Eve in the Garden and wanted to give them knowledge by offering them the fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Secret Combinations on the earth today believe that Satan is the giver of knowledge and light, and Christ would want us NOT to partake of that fruit (He commanded Adam and Eve NOT to partake). Next time you hear someone of questionable repute claim he prays to a higher father for his guidance, remember this basic principle of Luciferianism.

  2. Michelle
    January 15, 2007 at 2:34 pm #

    Connor, this is an interesting post. I think we really do need to be aware of the adversary’s effects and power. But I’m not convinced that accepting conspiracy theory is the way to do that, or that a lack of acceptance of conspiracy theory is evidence that we are blind to the adversary’s power. There are lots of voices in and out of the church, claiming knowledge and understandnig about lots of things. And with that, there is a lot of contradiction. I don’t believe there is one party or one theory or one philosophy that has all the answers. If we all really lived the gospel, that would be the answer, but clearly that’s not happening in our nation. So, what should people do? I’m wondering what your bottom line message is here…what do you think we should be doing?

    I’m also hard-pressed to take someone’s interpretation of what the secret combination might be. I am not blind to the fact that there is corruption in our government in many ways, but I’m not going to jump into political or conspiracy or other theories of men hook, line and sinker, either. I feel we do need to be on guard, but I’m not convinced that all the political hoopla is the answer to what the prophets and scriptures are warning against.

    I’m not disagreeing with you on this next question, but what convinces you that members of the Church are blind to the adversary?

    I think we need to be really vigilant about what solutions we seek to the real problems that we face. I don’t know what all of those solutions are, but I tend to think they are more spiritually-based than politically based. I’m still not sure what you think the solutions are. I’m fairly new to your blog, so I’d be interested to know what you are thinking. I feel a bit like this post is wanting to come out and say something but isn’t quite doing it. Am I missing something? :)

  3. John David Anderson
    January 15, 2007 at 3:06 pm #

    Well said, Michelle.

    Conspiracy theories are just that: theories. It doesn’t mean we ignore them until they become huge problems, but I think giving them too much weight is dangerous as well—especially if you’re trying to string them together to form some sort of world view.

    Sometimes the terms “conspiracy theory” and “gossip” are interchangeable. I suppose it is up to us to determine what to give attention to.

  4. Connor
    January 15, 2007 at 3:14 pm #

    Michelle,

    But I’m not convinced that accepting conspiracy theory is the way to do that, or that a lack of acceptance of conspiracy theory is evidence that we are blind to the adversary’s power.

    Conspiracy is such a broad scope that I think it includes everything Satan does, in the political, economic, and social realms, and every facet of life. Take, for example, the following scripture:

    And wo unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord! And their works are in the dark; and they say: Who seeth us, and who knoweth us? (2 Nephi 27:27)

    A conspiracy involves any act performed in secrecy (darkness) which is how Satan always operates. A teenage who steals from a local store is conspiring against them. A politician and lobbyist arranging a secret deal are conspiring together. Any act performed in the dark, with the intent of keeping it secret from other persons, is a conspiracy.

    I realize that many do not like the term. Many have been conditioned to disregard it, classifying it as an epithet used by the mentally unstable. President Benson once famously said:

    There is no conspiracy theory in the Book of Mormon—it is a conspiracy fact. (Conference Report, April 1972, p. 49-53)

    If we truly believe that the Book of Mormon was written for our day, surely we cannot cast aside one of the main subjects that permeates the entire historical record: conspiracy.

    I don’t believe there is one party or one theory or one philosophy that has all the answers.

    Michelle, I would invite you to read Dr. Monnett’s book (linked in the post) if you have the time and money. The open-minded LDS reader will surely learn a great deal about who is up to what. Rest assured, there is “one theory” and “one philosophy” promulgating Satan’s goals and desires. Discovering who is carrying out his will is astounding, enlightening, and mind-numbing. Yet it is in perfect harmony with the scriptures we’ve been given and the warnings that have repeatedly sounded from the pulpit.

    ..I’m not convinced that all the political hoopla is the answer to what the prophets and scriptures are warning against.

    Should you be curious enough to research it, learning about the Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs, Rockefellers, Rothschilds, and many other similar organizations and families will surely convince you. :)

    …what convinces you that members of the Church are blind to the adversary?

    We’ve been told that there will be a division in the Church, and tares among the wheat. We learn in countless verses in the scriptures (written for us, and our day) that Satan will try to bind us by turning our hearts away from the truth so that they become hardened.

    Throughout my studies I have taken the time to ask family, friends, colleagues and acquaintances about their opinions on these matters. I ask them what they think about conspiracies, about secret combinations in our day, about evil men in our government trying to destroy the Constitution, and about today being the great day of Satan’s power.

    The response is disheartening. I believe that there is most definitely an “all is well in Zion” attitude among many members of our Church. Whether they sincere scriptorians that have not yet “[awoken] to a sense of our] awful situation”, or card-carrying social club members of the Church, many I talk to completely dismiss any idea of wrongdoing in our government or other men doing Satan’s bidding in our day. With such persons I do not argue, because they do not have ears to hear. Perhaps their time will come when they have progressed sufficiently to accept the things that the scriptures clearly state, but such things should not be forced upon anybody, for they will be easily rejected (perhaps more so than in the apathetic stance many currently take).

    I do not enjoy blanket statements. I am not trying to make one here in saying that many members I’ve encountered feel this way. I am confident that there are many members who are “blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it” (see D&C 123:12-15). I take heart in knowing of many others out there who do understand our “awful situation” and are taking an active part in warning their neighbors.

    I do not wish to offend or upset, because I know that discussions of this nature can often and easily become heated. But my fervent studying on these and similar topics convince me even further that the scriptures are true, that they were written for our day, and that everything (even the secret combinations!) contained therein have been passed on to us as a clarion call to prepare and be warned about what we are to face. Throughout my studies, the spirit has testified of the veracity of these ongoings, of the existence of individuals and organizations carrying out all that which is antithetical to the God’s plan, ultimately upholding and supporting Satan’s own plan. They are out to destroy liberty, bind us down, and hoard up power and wealth, exactly as Satan has intended. These things are true.

    I don’t know what all of those solutions are, but I tend to think they are more spiritually-based than politically based.

    Michelle, since you admit you are new to this blog (thanks for stopping by!) I’ll give a quick summary of what you may find upon continued visits.

    This blog deals with (mostly) political and religious material. I personally feel that politics and religion are inseparably intertwined. To clarify my meaning, I offer the following quotes:

    Next to being one in worshipping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States! (David O. McKay)

    The Elders of Israel should “understand that they have something to do with the world politically as well as religiously, that it is as much their duty to study correct political principles as well as religious.” (John Taylor)

    Politics and religion both deal with principles of governing men. We believe that even governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man, and likewise believe that Christ will rule under a semi-theocratic government. I believe that we should spread true political principles (those advocated in and guaranteed by the Constitution) as much as we should spread the gospel.

    I feel a bit like this post is wanting to come out and say something but isn’t quite doing it.

    This post mainly intended to convey a few thoughts and quotes about Satan to clarify his purpose and methods. Obviously the subject matter can get deeper, but I’d prefer to leave it up to the inquisitive reader to study on their own, using “the best books”, so that s/he may receive their own witness to its veracity and ideas on how best to “fight the good fight”.

    Like a good missionary, I’m not going to say that you should believe what I have said. I have my own witness to the truth that I deeply treasure, but all I intend to do is present what I believe to others, and leave it up to them to sincerely study the things I’ve suggested and pray on their own to ascertain the truth.

    I’m not going to offer any “solution” as you inquired about, but leave it up to the reader to find his/her own solution. We all have different methods of fighting the same battle.

    Hopefully I haven’t become too long-winded in responding to your questions/statements. I welcome your comments as we all seek to be edified and rejoice together.

  5. Kelly Winterton
    January 15, 2007 at 3:19 pm #

    I remember the conspiracy theory that Saddam Hussein had WMD. There were oh so many experts that were saying before the Iraq War that those claims were not at all proven. Yet, these experts were dismissed as conspirators, as “unpatriotic” or even as treasonous. Yet, they have been proven correct, and the government’s (Cheney’s) theories of stockpiles of WMD were proven incorrect. Then, consider the ultimate “theory,” which has also not yet been proven the slightest bit true, that a guy in a cave in Afghanistan used 19 poorly trained pilots as hijackers with boxcutters to bring down into a dustpile the three WTC towers.

  6. Michael L. Mc Kee
    January 15, 2007 at 3:24 pm #

    Connor Boyack—A Stripling Warrior!—An Elder of Israel!

    Even though this compilation of facts, and words past uttered by other Elders of Israel, and worthy souls who understood the very real destructive power which is possessed by Lucifer is worthy of an accolade, I know he is far too humble, and devoted to serving others to waste time seeking after worldly praise. The personal thoughts he has injected, along with the quotes, and references attributed to others, are typical of those spoken by a Priesthood holder whom the Lord utilizes to sound the trump of foreboding to those who will but listen, and hear the beckoning call of our Heavenly Father to “be about His business.”

    If you sincerely believe the Lord only utilizes Prophetic utterances to arouse his Saints to action, you are blindly following after the same “siren song” many others heard just before they made the eternal decision to follow after Lucifer.

    The Lord has but one Prophet on the earth at this time who speaks for Him, and that Is Gordon B. Hinckley. When the Lord is finished with President Hinckley He will remove him from his place, and will install another in an organized fashion which would dismay the world, yet it is the only way He does everything because He is Jesus the Christ.

    It is my belief that Connor is not spending the amount of time I am certain he spends on these topics merely to be entertaining, and I am also under no delusion that he feels anything other than charity, and love for his brothers, and sisters when he offers them for us to consider.

    While I am, I believe, a compassionate person it seems I must occasionally resort to making comments which are unbecoming a Christian, and require me to seek forgiveness from individuals as well as Heavenly Father.

    Recently, I divulged some personal facts about myself in an effort to be clearer concerning my methods of self-expression. I will, at this time offer a few more insightful revelations about the personality of Michael L. Mc Kee.

    I indicated that I was 60 years old, and had been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for over 36 years. I did not, at that time indicate that after being baptized in the South China Sea while serving as a Sergeant in the United States Army, I became inactive about 6 months later. I turned my back on the Lord, and did not return for another 30 years. While I do not believe I ever really lost my testimony, I certainly was not living it. In fact, I am certain I committed sins which would have resulted in my being rightfully excommunicated. Thankfully, it did not occur because the Lord chose to spare me that well earned punishment, and more. I cannot adequately express my love to the Lord for His compassionate understanding of one so undeserving of Him as was I. I first came back to full activity in December 2001, and the Lord has blessed me with so many undeserved gifts that I cannot fully appreciate why.

    Now to the comments which may be offensive to some, but as I indicated in my previous post, I am not of a politically correct nature, and I believe some of us need to be figuratively slapped occasionally. If I were receiving all of the slapping I deserve, I would be incapacitated or in a coma. I have a total disdain for those of my brethren, and sisters, as well as myself, when we persist in being lukewarm in our service to our Heavenly Father, and His children. I am also not in any way patient with those who spend an inordinate amount of time engaging themselves in the pursuit of perfection without valiance, and loyalty. I have been praying for that Christlike attribute for over 5 years, and it has come slowly, and sparingly, but come it has because the Lord has promised me it would if I persisted in leaning upon His Atonement. Brothers, and sisters it is not “everlastingly too late” for us to be awakened, and recognize our “awful situation,” but I do sincerely believe, and humbly state that we must rededicate ourselves to proclaiming that we are Christians, and we are fortunate members of the only church upon the earth which has a living Prophet. The Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter-day Saints is in possession of the only knowledge upon the earth which will effectually save us from the powers of Satan, and the evil secret combinations which are devoted to the cause of total destruction of the Savior’s true plan of salvation, and we must take that knowledge to our non-member brothers, and sisters NOW. It is time to rise up, and state without reservation, or hesitation that we are in no way going to continue to participate in the slovenly nature we have demonstrated in the past. It is time for us to put off the natural man, and reject the plan of the adversary to destroy freedom, and agency. These are gifts he wilfully chose to reject, but we did not. The Lord reiterated this plan of liberty by inspiring, and blessing the Framer’s Constitution of the United States of America, and He has not rescinded any of it.

    As we are part of the people indicated in “We the People….”, and as we have been given even greater blessings, there is far more expected of us, and we can no longer move about within our pathetic, and irrelevant little “comfort zones” of “feel good “political correctness, and “all inclusive” social theories fearing we may offend, or be misunderstood.

    We are members of the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” We are not “Mormons.” Mormon was a wonderful, and valiant Saint who helped prepare the way for us to receive the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. We are not members of the LDS Church, and we do not have more than one wife. We are not a cult, and we are quite certain we are Christians. The Temples we utilize, (much too infrequently,) and revere are sacred Houses of the Lord, and are not filled with crazed men, and women performing secret oaths. The garments with which we clothe our nakedness are not funny underwear, and we are grateful to the Lord for providing us with their protective symbols. In short, we are Christians who happen to love our Lord, Jesus Christ, and we also happen to love them even when they ridicule both the Lord, and us. We know the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true, and we know Joseph Smith was, and is a Prophet of God, and while we hold him in the greatest esteem, we do not worship him.

    We are going to soon be required, I believe, to stand either for or against the Lord, and their will be no “grey areas” available for those who are foolish enough to accept that crap (forgive me Father.) Sin is not somewhat acceptable to the Lord. Lying, and cheating is not occasionally okay with Him. There is no such thing as “Separation between Church and State” as it is currently defined by the Communistic organization known as the A.C.L.U. There is no such meaning within the context of the 14th. Amendment anyone with a modicum of intelligence could construe as giving Constitutional rights to a defenseless newborn baby whose parents are not legalized, oath-bound citizens of the United States of America. However, there is something inherent within the nature of compassionate, charitable Americans indicating the Declaration of Independence renders us bound to protect the child, and the parents from harm. It is the nature of Americans to render Christlike service to all of Heavenly Father’s children, and treat them with respect, and dignity by offering them a hand up, but not a disingenuous, self-serving handout such as some would have us believe. The 1st. Amendment does not give the press license to intentionally lie, and manipulate the so-called facts in an effort to put forth their opinions. Lies disguised as truth are still lies.

    Of the many things around me which I rely upon to lift my spirit, and help me to have faith, and hope for the future are a large picture of the warrior leader General Moroni hoisting his Flag of Freedom by Walter Rane, and General George Washington offering the Prayer at Valley Forge by Arnold Friberg. I would follow either of these valiant servants of the Lord to the depths of hell because they possess the kind of loyal spirit I, myself desire to possess. I may never attain to their level of patriotic fervor, but I certainly will never do so by sitting around.

    I sincerely hope those of us who follow the topics Connor presents will show appreciation for his work by going to those referenced sites to read important information which may be critical to preserving our freedom to worship our Savior Jesus Christ, and raise our beloved flag.

    In a recent post I made reference to the Communist Manifesto, and Jeff pointed out to me that I had my dates, and information confused. When you are 60 years old, and you have access to 1000 books, and stacks of printed-out material wherein you go to find the appropriate text for a thought you are considering, it is easy to be somewhat forgetful as to what, why, where, when, and how you remember something pertinent. Anyway, I was actually referring to a 1958 Communist Goals list which was posted by Geoff Metcalf, and I believe he is, or was with World Net Daily. This list comes from W. Cleon Skousen who is one of my mentors along with the Prophet Ezra Taft Benson. It is a list of 45 goals which, when read, should bring anyone who reads them around to their senses sufficiently to realize they are all very evident in the current makeup of the United States, and the rest of the world. I appreciate Jeff pointing this out to me, and will try to insist I do a better job in future. I believe you can find this list at http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/wndarchive/19566.html

    I will currently stand by my opinions at this point, and I hope my reference to other information is factual, and/or doctrinal. I make no apologies for loving the Lord as I do, and I do believe it is wise counsel to learn what can be done to restore the Framer’s Constitution to the original inspired, and blessed condition it was in before we complacently allowed it to be usurped by a secular ideology inspired by Lucifer himself. May our Heavenly Father extend His tender mercies toward us while we begin to prepare the land for the return of the rightful King, Jesus Christ.

  7. Kelly Winterton
    January 15, 2007 at 3:55 pm #

    Michelle,

    My offer to loan my copy of Jack Monnett’s book is still good. If you want to, I will send it to you (just promise to send it back when you’re done). Drop me an email.

    Jack Monnett is a prof at BYU. I heard him speak and bought his book from him – I had him sign the coverpage for me!

  8. Michael L. Mc Kee
    January 15, 2007 at 4:24 pm #

    I had intended to make reference to a previous post wherein I had indicated some comments I found concerning education. They came from Faith Christian Ministries, and much of the material was gleaned from the work of W. Cleon Skousen, and the Freemen Institute which he founded (now called the National Center for Constitutional Studies.) I believe you will find it at http://www.faithchristianmin.org/articles There are many articles having to do with education which I believe Jeff, and Michelle may find helpful. The author is Dr. Paul Cates.

    The real effort to usurp the educational process in the United States began in 1903, and was led by many of the operatives who were also those involved with the organizations Connor referred to. Please, brothers, and sisters go read this material. If you cannot glean anything from all of the glaring evidence which is available, I am at a loss as to what to tell you to do except follow the Prophet, bury yourself in the Book of Mormon, and other standard works, attend temple about 10 times more than you probably are, and spend time in the Celestial room quietly contemplating your experiences, pray for opportunities to serve, and share the gospel until you start tripping over people who want to hear the truth, get a copy of the Constitution, and commit to reading it through until you start feeling just how simple, yet powerful it is, fast more than once a month, and do it with fervent prayer before you start, and give humble thanks when you end the period of time you allotted to it, keep a journal on a daily basis, and finally be worthy to receive the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

  9. Michelle
    January 15, 2007 at 4:26 pm #

    Connor,
    Thanks for the response. Long response in return:

    I completely know you have a good heart, and that you are passionate about what you believe. That is important. I agree that much of Satan’s work is done in conspiracy (in secret). But this can apply at an individual level (say, one who struggles with pornography in secret, or one who steals away in an illicit affair in secret, or one who abuses spouse or children in secret, etc…..) You may feel that politics are where its at. And that’s great. I just hope that you or others who are so passionate don’t assume that those who don’t share that same intensity of focus are simply asleep and/or blind.

    Let me say, then, that I don’t believe that the only threat we face in terms of secret combinations is related to government. Not that I dont’ think some of this may be going on around us (I believe the adversary is at work in our society at large, including in governmental processes and such). And I don’t believe that studying political theory etc. is the only way to be rallied to the standard of liberty and to the Lord’s cause.

    Michael, I also disagree that those who look to the prophets for guidance are falling asleep at the wheel. What I see in the scriptures is that those who looked carefully to the prophets and faithfully followed their counsel, were protected from harm and were blessed and saved by the Savior. Following their counsel includes being involved in the political process, but it is most certainly not limited to that. I assume that neither of you is asserting that it is.

    I personally become uncomfortable when anyone tries to “convert” me to their interpretations of the way things are. I don’t for a second believe that one cannot be inspired to focus on certain things that aren’t specifically being focused on by our leaders. I believe that there are many ways to “fight the good fight.” My own personal feelings about what to be doing have not been all directly political, but they are passionate desires nonetheless. I think there is more to the fight than just seeking to find “one” group or “one” institution that is succumbing to the power of the adversary. I personally believe that the secret combination that the adversary uses isn’t just in one place. It is his army as called to action, and those who follow him in many ways and places and organizations and non-organizations throughout the world. It’s not just centered somewhere in the American govt.

    I am actually encouraged, Connor, that you won’t propose one solution (although I think in a way you do. :) )

    Food for thought: if Pres. McKay’s quote is still legitimate, then what do non-US folks focus on? This is an example, I think, of the challenge of not looking to more current quotes for support and guidance. If the only secret combination is in the U.S. or related directly to the Constitution, then that would imply that there are no problems in other governments, that there are not separate and independent-from-US-influence factions of the adversary working their evil elsewhere. and that all members should be focused on defending the Constitution — either that, or those outside the US can sit on their laurels and not worry so much about things. This clearly isn’t true. There is more at stake than just the Constitution now, althuogh I will never argue that the Constitution isn’t one of our guideposts and concerns (for those in the US). Our current leadership believes in the Constitution, yes, but with a worldwide church, there is much more to be considered in “fighting the good fight” IMO. I think there is much, much more to what we need to be concerned about, as important as these things (political) are. Note the balanced perspectives our leaders give us. They tell us to be active politically, but more than anything, they tell us to have our own homes in order, to try to combat or at least walk away from the degradation in the moral environment around us, and to fulfill the threefold mission of the Church. We are to be actively engaged in good causes, yes, but there are many , many good causes that can help the big Cause. :)

    In short, we have a world-wide church, and I think that the secret combinations (emphasis on the plural) that seek to undermine the Lord’s work are all over, in more than just government entities. They can be at work in individual lives (addictions, sin, apostasy), in organizations (I won’t name specific ones that I think Satan likes, but I think they exists, and they aren’t just governmental) and informal groups (e.g., some online groups that gather and undermine the work), in businesses, etc. The adversary will get his foot in any door that isn’t tightly shut against his influence. There are those who feel compelled to find ways to shut the door to him politically. Connor, that sounds like you. But I am convinced there are other ways to defend the kingdom as well. I think the Lord can use what clicks with us, if we look to Him, to help Him in a variety of ways. I might take a looksie at Dr. Monnet’s book, but I don’t believe that one person without authority is going to have the corner on what is going on. :) My gut tells me there is much, much more to the adversary’s work than just what people see might be going on with events in the US. I think the secret combination is like the whore of the earth — it’s not localized in one organization, it’s spread throughout the world, in the hearts of people who seek for power, money, pride, lust, etc. Some of them are organized, some aren’t. IMO. ;)

  10. Kelly Winterton
    January 15, 2007 at 4:30 pm #

    Michael,

    It is interesting you mention the subject of education. Jack Monnett is in the Education Department at BYU. Education is in fact his real area of expertise, and all the previous books he’s written have been on that subject. In his latest book, Awakening To Our Awful Situation, he has devoted a whole chapter to the subject of education in today’s world and how Lucifer is striving to corrupt the education system today. (Have I plugged his book enough already?)

  11. Kelly Winterton
    January 15, 2007 at 4:39 pm #

    Michelle, you write:

    My gut tells me there is much, much more to the adversary’s work than just what people see might be going on with events in the US. I think the secret combination is like the whore of the earth — it’s not localized in one organization, it’s spread throughout the world, in the hearts of people who seek for power, money, pride, lust, etc. Some of them are organized, some aren’t.

    You are so correct with that statement. But it has been a real eye-opener to me that even though there are a myriad different people, organizations, groups, combinations in the world, I have found out that they are all of Satan, he being the father of all lies. To the casual observer, it appears these are not all organized under one leader, but I believe they are.

  12. Michelle
    January 15, 2007 at 4:56 pm #

    Michael and others:
    RE; education: I think this perspective may be misguided, at least in a blanket approach. Most certainly, I feel that some may feel it’s not right for their children. But I have not felt that way for our family, and I don’t feel it should be assumed that I am somehow a sleeping saint. Elder Oaks once said that we can look to our leaders not just by what they say but by what they do.

    “A related distortion is seen in the practice of those who select a few sentences from the teachings of a prophet and use them to support their political agenda or other personal purposes. In doing so, they typically ignore the contrary implications of other prophetic words, or even the clear example of the prophet’s own actions.

    “The servants of God are under the Master’s commands to follow him and to be examples to the flock (see 1 Tim. 4:12; 1 Pet. 5:3). We should interpret their words in the light of their works.” (Dallin H. Oaks, “Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall,” Ensign, Oct. 1994, 11)

    Our leaders talk about children going to school. It’s embedded in a lot of their counsel. They have never in my lifetime said that if we send kids to school we are somehow evil or falling short.

    Also, on a personal note, having attended (public) school with children of GAs (one who is now an Apostle), and knowing children of members of the Quorum of the 12 personally (not to play the do you know name dropping game, but to make a point), I am less than convinced that we are somehow not living according to inspiration if we feel public school is an OK option. My feeling is that could apply to the quote from above from Elder Oaks. If public school were that bad, don’t you think our leadesr would be making different choices themselves, and/or encouraging them in their families? If this push to throw the public school baby out with the bathwater were true, then the leaders themselves and their families would be under condemnation as well. Um, not one of us is in a position to generalize a position that puts our leaders in that kind of position, are we? That’s one aspect of take on that subject. Why look to what Monnet teaches but ignore what our leaders teach and what our leaders themselves and their families have done and still do? (Granted, I don’t know what all of them have done, but I do know a few, and I hear nothing of anti-public schoolisms. I also think that if it were all bad, we wouldn’t see an entire college at BYU dedicated to teaching public teachers how to teach. :)

    I am not saying that I don’t see that the adversary is getting into the schools. I know he is. But I don’t necessarily believe that, at least right now, the answer is that all member pull their children out. Each family can decide what to do about that. Some may live in areas where it’s really bad. I live in an area with teachers and administrators with values and faith, and active parents, so things are perhaps different where I am. Maybe someday we will get to that point where our leaders call us to action to leave…I don’t know. But I have studied this topic quite extensively, and I am still completely un-persuaded [I like making up words!] :) that our leaders want us out of the public school as a whole, or that the only way to protect our chidlren is to homeschool or whatever else. There are many options that can be right and good and can still be in line with prophetic teaching — current prophetic teaching in particular. If someone feels public school is wrong, that is completely within their stewardship to make that choice. To preach that choice as the only right and true choice, IMO, is inappropirate. I hope that isn’t what anyone is doing, but some comments feel a bit that way. Frankly, Dr. Monnet can share all he wants about the adversary’s influence. that still doesn’t mean that we are “supposed” to avoid public school altogether. That, again, ends up being personal choice that should not be judged by others, IMO.

  13. Connor
    January 15, 2007 at 5:08 pm #

    You may feel that politics are where its at. And that’s great. I just hope that you or others who are so passionate don’t assume that those who don’t share that same intensity of focus are simply asleep and/or blind.

    I agree that Satan’s works of darkness pervade every facet of life, as I stated in my previous comment. His works and methods are not limited to politics by any means. Indeed. some of the most important battles we fight against him are the deeply personal ones dealing with sin.

    However, understanding Satan and his tactics does not come full circle until one understands all of the angles with which he fights us. Government/politics is most definitely one of them, as I’m sure you would agree. The Book of Mormon is laden with examples of secret combinations both within and without the government, seeking to destroy liberty and freedom. As President Hinckley has said:

    The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today’s society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems. (Gordon B. Hinckley, A Testimony Vibrant and True)

    The Book of Mormon discusses secret combinations and politics nearly as much (if not more) than it does personal sin. One cannot successfully fight against Satan without understanding how he is deploy his forces. A general would not send his forces out into war without first studying the enemy to know where he is and where he is advancing. Likewise, we must be aware of all methods Satan employs in order to fight the good fight against him.

    Michael, I also disagree that those who look to the prophets for guidance are falling asleep at the wheel. What I see in the scriptures is that those who looked carefully to the prophets and faithfully followed their counsel, were protected from harm and were blessed and saved by the Savior

    I know this part was addressed to Michael, but I’d like to chime in. I think that truly listening to and following the Prophet includes everything he says from the pulpit, be it religious, political, social, or otherwise. As Harold B. Lee said:

    You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life… Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow… Let’s keep our eye on the President of the Church. (Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152-153)

    Many like to disregard what the Prophet of the Lord says on a given issue that may not sit well with them. I know of many girls who wear more than one pair of earrings, despite the Prophet’s direction on something so simple. I know of many Saints who think that Ezra Taft Benson was “off his rocker” when talking about politics. I know many Saints who don’t have a year’s supply, despite persistent prophetic urging. I know many Saints who glossed over President Hinckley’s own words about the Book of Mormon’s perfect prophesy of our own day, because of what the corollary would entail (i.e. believing in government corruption, wicked leaders, etc.).

    Many may profess to follow the Prophet, but I think that many also do not fully understand what that entails.

    I personally become uncomfortable when anyone tries to “convert” me to their interpretations of the way things are.

    Michelle, this is why in my last comment I suggested that I am merely trying to present this information for further study and pondering. What you do with it is up to you. Just as missionaries must rely on the Holy Ghost to do the conversion after they present the message, so I hope that those reading this material will humbly ponder the subject and go through their own conversion process. I’m not trying to shove this down anybody’s throat. That is Satan’s method. :)

    My own personal feelings about what to be doing have not been all directly political, but they are passionate desires nonetheless.

    This is why I didn’t suggest a single solution. While I agree there are many ways to fight the same fight, I nevertheless feel it important to understasnd these things. This scripture suggests why:

    And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be. (2 Nephi 32:7)

    We must seek to understand great knowledge. We must not be satisficers, content with milk and superficial gospel knowledge. As this week’s lesson in Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball said:

    Men came to earth consciously to obtain their schooling, their training and development, and to perfect themselves, but many have allowed themselves to be diverted and have become… addicts to mental and spiritual indolence and to the pursuit of worldly pleasure. (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball, pp. 4-5)

    We are here in school. We must study thoroughly to understand things “as they really are”. What the Spirit directs us to do with that knowledge varies for each of us. I’m not advocating deep political involvement for everybody by any means. For some, that is right, and others, it is not. However, I do feel that we all must understand what is going on around us. Ignorance is more certainly not bliss.

    Michelle, regarding your concern about the Constitution and the other nations of the world, may I remind you (though you’re probably already aware) that the Doctrine and Covenants mention the divine nature of this document several times. The Book of Mormon mentions our land as a free one, upheld by the hand of God, with a promise of protection and deliverance for all who obey Him. This land was reserved for God’s choicest children, and so we see His divine hand guiding many of the events which led to the establishment of our great nation.

    This is not to say that citizens of other nations are declined any blessings of potential for progression and growth. As God’s children, we are all entitled to the same blessing. However, God needed a nation in which he could restore His gospel. He needed one with freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and myriad of other natural rights and liberties so that the gospel would flourish.

    Even so, the gospel barely survived at the hands of (dare I say it?) secret combinations guided by Satan to destroy God’s work and inhibit the restoration of His gospel. Any other nation, in my opinion, would not have provided the necessary environment for planting the seed of the gospel in this dispensation.

    And so, when modern prophets have sounded off about Constitutional liberties and principles, they do not do it with the intent of holding Americans up above our brothers and sisters in other lands. They do it, recognizing the Divine Providence that inspired and supported the document, cognizant that this land is a special, blessed one.

    Our vigilance in defending Constitutional principles will likewise enable this great nation to be the beacon of peace and liberty, the rallying standard unto which those of other nations can flow. In a world of turmoil and tyranny, American has long since been seen as a free nation offering protection, private property, and freedom of essential civil liberties. As Satan’s grip tightens on our own land, the view of our once great nation has slowly changed in the eyes of our brothers and sisters throughout the world, and America is more and more becoming a tyrannical power in the lives of others.

    If we defend the Constitution, we at the same time defend freedom and liberty for everybody throughout the world. It is no small coincidence that many other nations patterned their own constitutions after our own. The principles it promotes and the liberties it protects are those given of God, and by upholding our own Constitution, we uphold similar liberties and rights for all of God’s children throughout the world.

  14. Connor
    January 15, 2007 at 5:22 pm #

    Michelle,

    I don’t believe (nor do I think that Michael does) that sending a child to a public school is evil. I don’t think he was trying to convey this.

    Thanks, also, for the quote by Dallin H. Oaks. I love that one. May I offer another, by Ezra Taft Benson, concerning watching the brethren’s actions and words for what to do:

    And now as the last neutralizer that the devil uses most effectively – is simply this; Don’t do anything in the fight for freedom until the church sets up its own specific program to save the Constitution. This brings us right back to the scripture I opened with today – to those slothful servants who will not do anything until they are compelled in all things. Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific Church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he did it would split the church asunder, and perhaps He does not want this to happen yet, for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe. (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.660)

    A slothful servant is commanded in all things. Based on prophetic principles and in line with the strait and narrow path, there is much we can (and should) do on our own without being told or requiring a GA’s example.

    I found it interesting that in President Hinckley’s conference address last fall titled Rise Up, O Men of God, he read from a hymn of the same name but for the third verse used one not in our own hymn book. The text of that verse, taken from The Oxford American Hymnal, said:

    Rise up, O men of God!
    The church for you doth wait,
    Her strength unequal to her task;
    Rise up, and make her great!

    While I don’t wish to misinterpret President Hinckley’s intentions of subtly including this stanza, I do find it intriguing that it was chosen for inclusion based on the message it conveys. The Lord needs our help. He needs creative minds, valiant hearts, and loyal convictions. The Church is waiting for us, its strength unequal to the task at hand. We must rise up (or, “be anxiously engaged in a good cause”) and carry forward the standard.

    This is not to say that we should do anything contrary to what has been taught, because we shouldn’t. However, there is much room for doing that which is “better” than the current “good” we are doing. We don’t need to wait around to be told what to do. If the Spirit dictates we should do something, then we must carry on so long as our actions are in harmony with the counsel that has been given.

    While the point of this post is more to do with Satan’s tactics at large and not specific ones (such as infiltration of education), I will firmly agree with you that where no counsel is given, none is required. Nobody is advocating that we must pull all of our children out of public education. The idea here is to be fully educated on exactly what is going on (e.g. the National Education Association, who funds it, what their goals are, and how that affects our local schools) rather than advocating any specific action that must be implemented. That decision is up to each of us, but we must base it on true and correct principles, as well as a full understanding of the nature of the situation.

  15. Michelle
    January 15, 2007 at 5:51 pm #

    Connor,
    I suspect that we think more alike than different on many of these the principles. I think we might differ on the specifcis on what action items should result from what leaders have said. I don’t disagree with what you have said in general in this last comment. I know that our leaders teach us about many different things, and I think we should be listening to them on all points. There is nothing temporal to the Lord, and what direction we receive is for our spiritual well-being, regardless of the nature of the counsel. I know that the Constitution is an inspired document. How to protect it specifcially seems a bit more up in the air, and we may each get different pushes to do different things. I agree that we should recognize that all is not well in our land, but I think anyone who is really listening to our prophets knows and feels that, and knows that it’s not just the US that has issues. We can be aware of problems and of Satan’s influences and still choose to respond in different ways. That’s really most of what I want to say…I just don’t feel comfortable when someone wants to take his/her specific approach (e.g., I took my kids out of school”) and try to convince someone it’s “the right” thing to do. That’s not right. (This is not directed at anyone in particular…I’ve run into this so many times in general that that’s why I stepped into the conversation on education in the other post…to try to preempt that from happening…none of us can receive specific personal revelation for anyone else, and the general counsel we receive on many of these topics leaves plenty of room for personal revelation. We should respect that for each other, otherwise, unnecessary divisions within can result (about which the BoM also speaks…. contentions and dissentions among the people of God are one way the adversary gets a huge foothold…indeed, such divisions lead to the destruction of the people). Fighting the adversary needs more than just awareness. It takes unity within the Church.

    Hard stuff. Do we need to be unified on opinions about to what extent current happenings are a direct result of US government issues or a broader “secret combination”? I don’t think we will be, because to me, unity can’t come under philosphies of people who have no authority over all of us, whom we don’t sustain as prophets and seers. My personal approach is to be very careful about getting too sure about too many specifics about too many things going on that are theories. People like Dr. Monnet and Dr. Jones make me nervous, to be honest…not because I’m 100% sure that they are wrong or because I think they dont have valid points on some things, but that sometimes I feel they are setting themselves up for a light in a way, thinking they are the only ones who are right, and getting “followings” and people wanting to “convert” to their points of view. It feels a bit too hobbyish to me, personally, and just doesn’t sit well. Maybe that’s because that’s not what I personaly should be focusing on, but still, I don’t appreciate people then assuming I am blind or stupid or alliswellish — calling me to repentance to “see the light.” These theories don’t feel like light to me, so they stay as theories in my mind. AGain, this is not ignorance that the devil is at work, I’m still just not convinced about all the theories on what that specifcially might mean. My personal concern is that too much focus on these things might actually distract us from the mark, as it were. I could be wrong on this, but this is my personal approach. I have to go with my gut, and my gut doesn’t resonate with these things, at least not to the point of wanting to get evangelical about them. Concerned? Yes. Aware? I think so. Convinced about all the details or prescribed responses? Not even close. The only people I have absolute confidence in are the prophets. Everyone else is, to me, just individuals doing what they feel compelled to do, but no one has a corner on the knowledge with regard to these things (nor any authority to “preach” them), and I tend to think that “Things as they really are’ will be a combination of lots of things different people are saying, along with stuff we probably don’t know (because some of its probably still HIDDEN). :) So….summing up: There is way too much variation and contradiction for me to have confidence in any one theory or approach, unless and until the Spirit leads me toward pursuing a specific, which He hasn’t done. :) Like I said, I just sorta go with my gut on these things. I hope we all do.

    Connor, I appreciate you clarifying your comments so I can understand better where you are coming from. :) Sorry for my long responses. I tend to be longwinded. :) (Yeah, well, that’s obvious….)

  16. Michelle
    January 15, 2007 at 6:18 pm #

    If the Spirit dictates we should do something, then we must carry on so long as our actions are in harmony with the counsel that has been given.

    Yup. But — and I think you would agree — the Spirit’s personal-inspiration direction must stay personal or one quickly can get out line. Missionary work isn’t supposed to be about converting others to one’s point of view, ya know? :) It’s supposed to be about the basic gospel principles, and then the specific “anxiously engaged” stuff comes via the Spirit in individually-catered ways. There are boatloads of ways we can combat the adversary…both directly and indirectly, through personal righteousness and buildling the kingdom in our own stewardships, through missionary work, through combatting the evil head-on as directed, etc. So, I don’t feel compelled to study and pursue the same things you or others do in the same way or with the same specific approaches or focus — does that make me a bad person, a lazy bum, a slothful servant? I really don’t think so, because I feel to focus on other things. There is lots of stuff to do, lots of ways to work toward the cause. :) Some comments that have been made can leave a reader feeling like others are condemning for not taking the same approach. Either I’m reading into it too much, being too sensitive, or maybe some of the comments are a bit overwrought. Having run into overwroughtness before, I’m probably a bit sensitive. Sorry. :)

    As to Pres. Benson’s quote, I also believe that we may not always get specifics from our leaders, but we DO get the general principles from them. And how we feel inspired to act in accordance with those principles will likely vary from person to person, sometimes quite significantly. Again, it becomes our responsibility to carefully distinguish what is “right for me” vs. what is going to be “right for everyone.” I suspect you would agree…so, again, on principle I think (hope) we basically are on the same page, at least on these fundamental, general points.

  17. Michelle
    January 15, 2007 at 6:49 pm #

    p.s. This discussion has spurred me to want to review talks on the Constitution, FWIW. :)

    I wll also say that I think part of what will continue to undermine our country is members of the Church not supporting the specific actions and positions that our leaders DO emphasize and encourage. If we support or condone the moral degradation of society and the destruction by defying our leaders (bold statement of what I think about those who don’t) of the God-ordained definition of and vision for family and chastity and morality, I fear other actions will very possibly be in vain, or will at least be hampered. I feel that is fair to say in a general way because our leaders have talked about how these things are the foundation of healthy societies. And becuase the Proclamation warns that if we don’t sustain these principles, we risk condemnation from the individual to the societal level.

    I see much of the violation of Constitutional principles revolving around these moral and social issues. I’m sure there is more to it all, but I see a lot of crossover between what our leaders DO take a specific stand on and what the adversary is succeeding with within our governmental structures, as is discussed here. Part of the reason I like Mitt is because he HAS taken a stand on issues like this, even in a liberal state. Too often, decisions of the few are overriding the view of the people. These types of issues surrounding family and morality are things I DO feel compelled to do more about, although I sometimes feel overwhelmingly helpless to really make a difference. :( And I also live in a place where my political leaders are usually in line with what I think on these subjects (although I did write our Att. Gen. when he took a stand I didn’t agree with). FWIW….

  18. knowbuddy
    January 15, 2007 at 7:18 pm #

    I know this doesn’t add to the discussion in progress, so delete this post if you wish, but I’m just curious about something. Is this Jack Monnett, whose book has been plugged here, the same guy who published Christopher Marc Nemelka’s purported translation of the sealed portion of the gold plates? Because if he fell for that mess, I don’t know how we can possibly put any stock into his views of the world.

  19. Connor
    January 15, 2007 at 10:08 pm #

    knowbuddy,

    Hmmmm.. As I read your comment and did a little probing, I definitely felt the Spirit leave, a sure fire signal of something bad. Not knowing much about Christopher Marc Nemelka (by intentional ignorance, steering away from such apostate garbage), I googled his and Jack’s names, and found a phone number for Jack.

    I called the phone number to speak with that Jack to ask if he’s the same one that published the book I have recommended in this post. Nobody answered, but I instead received an answering machine saying I had reached the office of “Nauvoo House Publishing”.

    Nauvoo House Publishing is, sure enough, the publisher of Awakening to our Awful Situation. I highly doubt that the connection can be a coincidence, thus indicating that this Jack Monnett is the same that printed the copies of the “sealed portion”.

    I will do some more investigating tomorrow. Thank you for the tip, I would not have known otherwise. I’ll report here what I discover.

  20. Michelle
    January 15, 2007 at 11:42 pm #

    Connor, FWIW, but I had the same sort of but response when I read the summary link of that book you recommended by Monnett. My gut just sort of went, “Ugh.” Maybe I’d feel differently if I perused the book, but honestly, like I said above, I’m not drawn to it and a part of me just doesn’t feel all warm and fuzzy about it all. I’m interested to know what more you find out.

    (OK, update right before I sent this…I just did a little more searching and realized that I’ve already been exposed to Dr. Monnett’s point of views. The Meridian article was spurred by the book. And I spent a lengthy amount of time responding to the article via an email to the author. I already can tell you what I think about it. I disagree with his assumptions and conclusions in many ways. I think he’s misguided in applying what the prophets in the early 20th century were doing and saying in the way he does to us today. That’s my opinion about it all. (At least I know my gut is consistent?) ;)

    Cool that you just picked up the phone and tried to figure out what is going on. Sounds like something I would do. :) You can always contact him via info at byu.edu.

  21. Kelly Winterton
    January 16, 2007 at 12:13 am #

    Wow, a lot has been said about Monnett’s book since I left the conversation a few hours ago. I just got done reading the book, and I believe many unfair assumptions have been made by those who have NOT read his book. Assumptions like “we should take our children out of public school because Lucifer has taken over the school system.” As a matter of fact, Monnett does not say this. He shows instead how Satan is trying to direct the curriculum to allow children to more easily accept the ideals of the NWO. In fact he uses the analogy of the frog in the gradually warming pot on the stove. He is trying to get us to recognize how the pot is getting warmer, and we should try to protect our schools and children, not yank them out. I happened to be able to hear both Monnett and Jones speak in person, and I personally feel that you are judging them even while you personally have not heard of their testimonies in real life as I have. I have chosen for myself, and I guess you have also. That’s good.

  22. Michelle
    January 16, 2007 at 2:22 am #

    Kelly, I was just going to get on and say that I have a feeling that maybe I shouldn’t have sent that last comment. I still might give the book a perusing…you are right, I shouldn’t make blanket judgments before giving it a chance. My experience and exposure to it was not really positive on the first go (or even reading the review), but I haven’t read the whole thing. Sorry if I jumped the gun by forming an opinion without giving the whole book a chance. :)

    I do want to say, though, that I didn’t mean to judge the person by what I said. I hope I can disagree with a person’s point of view without sounding like I’m judging the person. I don’t think I said anything about his character or anything. I just am cautious when it comes to accepting someone’s point of view when it doen’t gel with my gut and seems a bit non-mainstream (that’s my approach). But, like you said, I need to perhaps give a bit more time to the book in question before I say anything more.

    Still, I will be interested to see what Connor finds out about that other thing. For me, it’s significant to see patterns of what people are involved in.

    Anyway, Kelly, if I can’t find that book in my library, I might take you up on your kind offer to borrow your book. :)

  23. Kelly Winterton
    January 16, 2007 at 9:21 am #

    Michelle, with blogs, you need to be a liitle tough-skinned. I was not offended, and you shouldn’t be either. I find the difference of opinions very educational. If you want to email me about exchanging the book, my email should be linked to my name. I’m sure we would both agree on many, many things if we were to sit down together and talk, but with a medium like blogs, you can really have a head-knocking exchange in a faceless, anonymous fashion that wouldn’t normally happen. I’m sure we’d agree on things like Lucifer’s role in our earthly existence, but I am constantly learning more all the time, and feel he is actually behind efforts of governments, foreign affairs, and world domination even more than many LDS are aware. I believe they regard Satan only as a personal temptor, not a director of world events, or even as a figure-head that some people actually worship and covenant with! You mentioned that you previously said something on the blog you wish you hadn’t. That is the danger of blogs – once you hit Submit, it’s gone and published!

  24. Michelle
    January 16, 2007 at 12:55 pm #

    I’m not offended, either, FWIW.

    And, FWIW, I also think the adversary is probably behind a lot. My experience is that a lot of LDS folks realize that, but…. I think we’d have to be blind to not see his influence on a larger scale.

    Sometimes I worry more about his subtle influence on members of the Church than I do on the larger-scale stuff.

  25. Rob Osborn
    January 16, 2007 at 2:06 pm #

    What i find interesting is that there are certain members of our church who almost every Sunday warn of some type of coming tragedy- a conspiracy that is happening! Personally I look back over the past few years and there has been no warning from the brethren in Salt Lake. Is it just me or am I just tripping out when I think that this country is in fact getting more and more righteous and less wicked?

    We are finally conquering racial issues. We are more tolerant than ever before of differences in religion. We are doing more to help solve world hunger, oppression, and other deeds of wickedness and turmoil than ever before in American history. The need to protect oneself from bad and malicious groups is becoming less and less. Everyone says in their gossip- “look at this group or look at that one” when conspiracy theories abound. What i would like to say is yes there is conspiracy and wickedness in groups of all sizes. But it is not on the level that we “like to” gossip so much about. What is one of our greatest threats to us in this country? Drug, pornography and alcohol addiction! We are fighting these fronts harder than any other country in the world. Is America the great conspirators?

    Don’t count on it! This is God’s country!

  26. Connor
    January 16, 2007 at 3:46 pm #

    Rob,

    You obviously need to re-read the Book of Mormon, as well as countless talks by modern prophets on the current and future status of the United States. Dismissing all talk of conspiracy and evil-doing shows not only your own ignorance in basic Book of Mormon stories, but your (in my opinion) misguided understanding of the war on drugs, alcohol, and pornography.

    Holding a belief that “one of the greatest threats to us in this country” is drugs, pornography, and alcohol doesn’t make sense. Sure, such things are evil, promoted by Satan, and should be done away with. But to say that individuals using this items will somehow bring the demise of our entire nation is presumptuous at best.

    Did the Gadianton robbers, who brought about the destruction of the great Nephite nation, use drugs, alcohol, or pornography? One may assume so, though the argument has no specific scriptural support. Instead, we are told of the many methods employed by them to subdue freedom, usurp power, and destroy God’s favored people.

    Listen to the words of our Prophet on this matter:

    I know of no other writing which sets forth with such clarity the tragic consequences to societies that follow courses contrary to the commandments of God. Its pages trace the stories of two distinct civilizations that flourished on the Western Hemisphere. Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras. (Gordon B. Hinckley, A Testimony Vibrant and True)

    Drugs, alcohol, and pornography are evil things, to be sure. However, there are additional and more threatening ways in which our Constitution and its principles are being ignored, subverted, and destroyed.

  27. Michelle
    January 16, 2007 at 3:47 pm #

    @Rob,

    Hmmm….and yet the moral environment is decaying constantly, the family is being attacked, etc. And the Brethren speak and warn about this all of the time. Yes, we have made progress in some areas, but in areas fundamental to the plan of salvation, things are worse than they have been in any of our lifetimes. And we are told it WILL get worse. All the more reason to be vigilant about our own personal and familial spirituality. To me that is the strongest, most consistent message we get from our leaders. Cling to covenants, keep the Spirit always, seek to become….

  28. John David Anderson
    January 16, 2007 at 4:13 pm #

    I’m with Rob.

    Connor, you “obviously need to read” the Doctrine and Covenants. :) The outlook for the world isn’t all bad.

    Sure, all is not well in Zion, but I get really sick of how members of the Church talk about how evil and horrible the world is. Seems pessimistic to me, at best. I don’t think that’s how Jesus looks at it, and I don’t think it’s how President Hinckley looks at it either.

    We’ve been told a bajillion times we’re a chosen generation. The gospel is at its fullness, with more scriptures, temples, and good thing than ever before. The Church has 12 million strong members worldwide, and will never be taken away again. This world has held in its hands the likes of folks from Martin Luther King and Ghandi to Gordon B. Hinckley.

    You obviously need to re-read the Book of Mormon, as well as countless talks by modern prophets on the current and future status of the United States.

    The future state of the United States is the home for New Jerusalem. That’s what I’m reading. :)

    Sure, the world is getting worse in places, but its getting *better* in a quite a few as well. I can’t recall the last time God destroyed a city or sent a global flood, so I think we’re doing pretty good as far as global righteousness.

    Sure, we’re told things will get worse, but we’re also told they’ll get better. Let’s keep things in perspective.

  29. Rob Osborn
    January 16, 2007 at 4:31 pm #

    I know one thing for sure. I am not going to be moving into the mountains into “tent cities” anytime soon just because my neighbor (active LDS at that) is warning me that the Rockefellers or the likes of Clinton are selling us over to the United Nations and we will soon be under some type of continental or worldly communist secret combination!

    God will protect this nation from all other nations of the world so that his work (temples and gospel work) can continue. Last time I checked, our good missionaries in this country are blessed and protected by the people of this country. After all- we still are a christian nation!

  30. Michael L. Mc Kee
    January 16, 2007 at 6:45 pm #

    I have often heard people, mostly members of the Church, refer to “Happy Valley” which I presume is either somewhere in Utah, or Utah itself. Wherever it may be, I have always felt the name was rather disrespectful considering the trials, and tribulations those who first settled there went through. It may have a positive sound to some, but it seemed to me they were saying it because they were somewhat bored with it. If I am wrong I am certain someone will correct me, but until they do I’ll stick to my opinion. If any of you want to trade places with me let me know as I would venture to say that just going to a General conference, and being in the same building with 15 Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, would leave me spiritually drained for several days. I am also very fond of Sheri Dew, and would likely take a job sweeping the parking lot at Deseret Books just to see her pull into her parking space.

    I am not always very adept at escorting others to chapter, and verse in the scriptures. I am also seldom able to remember who said what, and when, but it seems to me that someone mentioned that the Saints would become so wealthy in material possessions that many would rationalize themselves right out of the Church.

    I believe “Happy Valley” can be wherever you may want it to be if you are complacent, and take the things of the Lord for granted. You are perhaps a resident of “Happy Valley” if you feel the so-called “War on Drugs” has made your world a safer place. This war has been going on for over 40 years as it has been defined, and the reality is the proper term is “Police Action” as no bureaucracy ever intends to win because they would then find themselves redundant, and that scenario is not even in the “play book.” Once created all bureaucratic governmental organizations quickly begin to mange the situation at best, and that is all they were ever intended to do.

    You may be a resident of “Happy Valley” if you sincerely believe this country has made progress toward eliminating racial tensions as there are at least twice as many bigots, and people who hate simply because of skin color, and other ethnic differences than there were when I was a teenager in the 60’s, and please spare me the statistical jargon that there are twice as many people than there were. Those who manage these things from behind the scenes have no intention of ending a money pit like this. The biggest detriment to solving these problems are the very people who claim everyone else is racially motivated, and I could give you names, but you can see them on TV every day.

    I really would like to tell those who sincerely believe this country is not on the verge of losing the basic freedoms we have been led to believe are in tact, please do not fail to miss the wonderful new things the 110th. Congress has in store for us.

    I wish I could tell those who have never lived in the world outside of the church what things are really like, and I certainly wouldn’t want them to have to experience it first hand as I did for 30 years between the time I was baptized, and a little over 5 years ago.

    Brothers, and sisters I do not care if many of you think I am an opinionated, sanctimonious, overbearing, fear-mongering idiot. I would probably agree with you to a respectable point, but please just take an in depth look at the difference between the original Framer”s Constitution, and the one which has largely been usurped by the Supreme Court. Perhaps you will then see that there are only a few threads left of the original fabric weaved to protect our God-given unalienable rights.

  31. Michelle
    January 16, 2007 at 6:59 pm #

    Sure, the world is getting worse in places, but its getting *better* in a quite a few as well.

    I see our days as getting to the “wheat and tares” thing…more polarization…more evil, but lots of good stuff, too. I think we hear both from our leaders. The Lord will protect those who have Him as their God. I think it’s good to keep a balanced perspective…never losing sight of the wonderous blessings of our day, but also realizing that we have to be ever-vigilant, as our leaders say, of evil creeping into our lives and homes and hearts. That doesn’t seem pessimistic to me, just realistic. But that realism to me is best received from our inspired leaders than anywhere else.

    I think Pres. Faust’s summary statement from this month’s article, which was the springboard for this post, says it all:

    “There are forces that will save us from the ever-increasing lying, disorder, violence, chaos, destruction, misery, and deceit that are upon the earth [yes, it exists, and yes, it’s increasing.] Those saving forces are the everlasting principles, covenants, and ordinances of the eternal gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Rob, I haven’t heard anyone encouraging us to hole up in a rock somewhere. :) None of that necessary. All we need to do is cling to our covenants, follow the prophets, and seek the Spirit’s guidance and help to live according to the principles we know to be true. :)

  32. Connor
    January 16, 2007 at 7:47 pm #

    John,

    Michelle (comment #31) took the words right out of my mouth. :)

    I firmly believe that we are facing increased polarization. I’m not preaching doom and gloom stuff here, because I do realize that we are so fortunate to have the restored gospels, temples dotting the earth, prophets and apostles in our midst (I saw Elder Wirthlin on the way home! haha..), the priesthood restored, and worthy Saints making this world a better place one step at a time.

    However, Satan’s forces are spreading their cause just as much as we are ours. I especially like the analogy John Bytheway uses to describe how much better Satan has become at invading our personal lives with his filth and grime.

    Michelle said exactly what I wanted to say in this vein: the world is becoming increasingly polarized. While on one hand we’re told:

    No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done. (History of the Church, 4:540)

    …we are also told by scripture and modern prophets that wars, rumors of wars, pestilence, famine, and general destruction will be found on the earth. Both sides are progressing towards their ultimate goals quite rapidly. We who have been reserved for the last days will likely be around to see a huge escalation of conflict before the end shows up at our door like a thief in the night. Hence, it is referred to as a “great” and “terrible” day. Which side of the fight we are on will decide how it is to feel for each of us.

  33. Jason
    January 16, 2007 at 8:38 pm #

    I haven’t been following this whole discussion, nor read every comment thoroughly, but this thought that John wrote caught my attention:

    Sure, the world is getting worse in places, but its getting *better* in a quite a few as well. I can’t recall the last time God destroyed a city or sent a global flood, so I think we’re doing pretty good as far as global righteousness.

    Sure, we’re told things will get worse, but we’re also told they’ll get better. Let’s keep things in perspective.

    Someone just recently (my Bishop I think?) vocalized a thought / point of view I have had but never put into words regarding John’s comment, we are told that in the last days things will be (and arguably are in some if not many places) as bad or even worse than the days of Sodom and Gomorrah, *BUT* remember, in that story Abraham couldn’t even find a single righteous person in the city to save it from destruction. How many righteous people do you think there are in Las Vegas, San Francisco, New York, Provo or anywhere else? At least one probably more? I think so.

  34. Connor
    January 16, 2007 at 8:43 pm #

    Jason,

    Luckily for the citizens of the aforementioned cities, we’ve got temples in those spots! :) Otherwise, we perhaps would have a case of Ammonihah on our hands…

  35. fontor
    January 17, 2007 at 12:49 am #

    Do I say anything, or don’t I?
    I do.

    If I said that an evil invisible spirit being named Fred was trying to influence American politics, they’d put me away. But change the name to Lucifer and suddenly I’m normal.

    And not only can he influence politics (somehow), but he can actually get into your head to tempt you.

    This belief is a recipe for mental illness. There’s no way of demonstrating when an invisible spirit being has done something, so all this talk about Fred’s influence is pure conjecture. It’s also less than helpful because it allows you to imagine that people on the opposite side politically are not just wrong, but somehow evil.

    How’s about this: when things aren’t quite right in the System, it’s because people — maybe good, misguided people (or maybe just horrible people) — make choices we don’t like. Simpler theory, no? Occam’s razor.

  36. Kelly Winterton
    January 17, 2007 at 9:47 am #

    Jason (#33), thanks for your observation. I wanted to voice almost exactly the same point yesterday, but didn’t because I’d already posted a few times to this subject. You are spot on. But I will add one thing – – we are told that in the last days even the very elect will be deceived. Let’s try not to be deceived by Lucifer.

  37. John I.
    February 15, 2007 at 1:31 pm #

    I just discovered this forum. Very interesting. Satan has been constantly trying to interfere with our relationship with God. From his seduction of Eve in the garden, it has been his plan to lead mankind to ruin. He concentrated on our carnal natures, knowing the weakness of the flesh, as Eve soon found out. It was also his plan to try to prevent the coming of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, by corrupting His bloodline. But, God has always been one step ahead of Satan, thwarting his every attempt to accomplish this. We, as Christians, must always be on guard against the Deceiver and his minions, but also remember that as long as we walk in our Father’s commandments and trust in Yeshua’s name, we shall overcome evil.

  38. Connor
    February 23, 2007 at 3:57 pm #

    This summary of luciferianism is interesting. I’m sure the author would be elated to read modern scripture and see further warnings and examples of Satan’s control. Thank God for additional scripture.

  39. Brad Carmack
    May 21, 2010 at 12:13 pm #

    I’ve now heard about the same conspiracy story from Conner, my friend Kat, and Jack Monnett (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7650763335074610214&hl=en#). I just joined the BYU Freedom Society on facebook, and plan to check out Monnett or Gary Allen’s book. (none dare call it conspiracy or awakening to our awful situation). Thanks for adding your voice to the mix, Connor. Also, how do you put that blog gadget up that says what you’re reading at the moment?

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