I was also unclear about the agency question. I was meaning in connection with ‘the war in heaven’. That was the central issue wasn’t it?

Its interesting the term ‘moral agency’ it does sound different from ‘free agency’. I think the monotheistic faiths generally have that, or something close to that, with some exceptions. I personally don’t accept ‘free’ if that means that you can make choices independent of your upbringing and experience. If you study ethics you will find that can be simple or complex. Sometimes simple while being complex even. One thing is for sure is that there are stages of moral development, and you can’t get to number 6 without first going through 5 and 4. There is a general feeling that most people will never get past 4. (kolbergs theory of ethical development)

The other thing is that you do make different choices in different stages, there are generally more options as you ‘progress’. Somethings that seemed unthinkable in an earlier stage are totally accepted in later stages. Your sense of right and wrong can totally shift and change.

Here is a work and commentary about the interconnectedness of everything. In some eastern philosophies the idea of anyone existing and behaving apart from anything else is total non-sense.

Interbeing – by Thich Nhat Hanh
INTERBEING – by Thich Nhat Hanh

If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud, there will
be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow; and without trees, wecannot make paper. The cloud is essential for the paper to exist.

If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either. So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are. that is not in the dictionary yet, but if we combine the prefix
with the verb to be; we have a new verb, inter-be.

If we look into this sheet of paper even more deeply, we can see the sunshine in it. Without sunshine, the forest
cannot grow. In fact, nothing can grow without sunshine.

And so, we know that the sunshine is also in this sheet of paper. The paper and the sunshine inter-are. And if we continue to look, we can see the logger who cut the tree and brought it to the mill to be transformed into paper. And we see wheat. We know the logger cannot exist without his daily bread, and therefore the wheat that became his bread is also in this sheet of paper. The loggers father and mother are in it too.

When we look in this way, we see that without all of these things, this sheet of paper cannot exist.

Looking even more deeply, we can see ourselves in this sheet of paper too. This is not difficult to see, because when we look at a sheet of paper, it is part of our perception. Your mind is in here and mine is also. So we can say that everything is in here with this sheet of paper. We cannot point out one thing that is not here in time, space, the earth, the rain, the minerals in the soil, the sunshine, the cloud, the river, the heat. Everything co-exists with this sheet of paper. That is why I think the word inter-be should be in the dictionary. “To be” is to inter-be. We cannot just be by ourselves alone. We have to inter-be with every other thing. This sheet of paper is, because everything else is.

Suppose we try to return one of the elements to its

source. Suppose we return the sunshine to the sun. Do you think that

this sheet of paper will be possible? No, without sunshine nothing can

be. And if we return the logger to his mother, then we have no sheet of

paper either. The fact is that this sheet of paper is made up lonely of

“non-paper” elements. And if we return these non-paper elements to

their sources, then there can be no paper at all. Without non-paper

elements, like mind, logger, sunshine and so on, there will be no

paper. As thin as this sheet of paper is, it contains everything in the

universe in it.

“Free agency” is merely a slang term and is very peculiar to the lds faith. Even within the faith it really is not much more than a slang term. “Free agency” is not the doctrine, it’s “Moral agency.” I don’t know if you’re going to find that term in other religions, but a nice synonym is “Liberty.” See, mormons have mixed to two terms, freedom and (moral) agency, and come up with free agency, because they really are the same thing.

Stephen was stoned in the New Testament and he was NOT a false prophet. They only thought him to be a heretic.

Stoning was simply the chosen method of protest for those eras and cultures. In America, they had a new form of expressing social displeasure: tarring and feathering. This was not quite as deadly as stoning, but almost. Although developed much earlier in Europe, it was carried over to the Americas and continued on throughout most of the 1800s. I haven’t yet heard of a tarring and feathering (for religious offense) much past the early 1900s.

Free agency is mostly an LDS thing. Although not a central doctrine in other faiths, they believe man can choose right or wrong (Christian & non-Christian). But in this faith it is a central theme because a lot of things fall apart if we are not free to choose.

Evangelical Christians tend to believe in Calvinism in that we don’t really have a choice about anything. Anything we do, good or bad, is because God wills it. Of course, their beliefs keep changing from person to person, place to place, and day to day. So, it is difficult to say.

@ Eric

I have been troubled for a long time about how many LDS have said of the current prophet,”Who does he think he his? He doesn’t speak for me. We’ll see how things change when we get a new one.”

You know, we keep getting new prophets. They keep saying the same things. Aside from minor policy changes and only two major changes in 178 years (which I think is a much better track record than ANY other faith) the doctrines of this church don’t change.

For those who don’t want to listen to the prophet or don’t want him speaking for “us”, what are they doing as members of the Church?

Reference the article on this blog: A Saint’s lament . . .

About the ‘war in heaven’. Is the whole ‘free agency’ thing limited to just the LDS faith? Wikipedia only references the LDS faith as this having anything to do with free agency.

I find it interesting that another source has suggested that ‘war in heaven’ meant in the sky, possibly with physical weapons. This is not an LDS source, and also not christian, but a source which compares christian stories with summarian and other stories.

Is there any evidence of stoning in the Americas?

Also: Alma 31:4 commentary: “Inciting War” “The Nephites feared that the Zoramites would incite the Lamanites to war, which is what actually happened later. This happens in modern times as well. Leaders in power want war for their own wicked purposes, so they stir up their people through hate campaigns and propoganda to the point where they will go to war.” pg 88

Also: Boyd K Packer’s talk in 2007 “Lehi’s Dream” http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=11528

pay special attention at the end when he quotes Ether 8 and says, the mockers are not only those outside the church. He then says, let me repeat that…

Also: see lds.org for the churches official position on politics. You won’t hear it from the pulpit anymore as we did in the days of Ezra T. Benson. If the members live the gospel, they will find the truth and be accountable for the actions if they don’t (see pg. 140 BofM institute manual “special warnings” for the consequences of what happened to the early saints for not following the prophet and what will happen to us if we ignore these warnings”

last point: the contention in these post is why David O. Mckay pulled his outline on Government in the 60′s. It causes too much contention.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm

[When the U.S. doesn't like a government], they send the CIA in, with its resources and activists, hiring people, hiring agents, to tear apart the social and economic fabric of the country, as a technique for putting pressure on the government, hoping that they can make the government come to the U.S.’s terms, or the government will collapse altogether and they can engineer a coup d’etat, and have the thing wind up with their own choice of people in power.

Now ripping apart the economic and social fabric of course is fairly textbook-ish. What we’re talking about is going in and deliberately creating conditions where the farmer can’t get his produce to market, where children can’t go to school, where women are terrified inside their homes as well as outside their homes, where government administration and programs grind to a complete halt, where the hospitals are treating wounded people instead of sick people, where international capital is scared away and the country goes bankrupt. If you ask the state department today what is their official explanation of the purpose of the Contras, they say it’s to attack economic targets, meaning, break up the economy of the country. Of course, they’re attacking a lot more.

To destabilize Nicaragua beginning in 1981, we began funding this force of Somoza’s ex-national guardsmen, calling them the contras (the counter-revolutionaries). We created this force, it did not exist until we allocated money. We’ve armed them, put uniforms on their backs, boots on their feet, given them camps in Honduras to live in, medical supplies, doctors, training, leadership, direction, as we’ve sent them in to de-stabilize Nicaragua. Under our direction they have systematically been blowing up graineries, saw mills, bridges, government offices, schools, health centers. They ambush trucks so the produce can’t get to market. They raid farms and villages. The farmer has to carry a gun while he tries to plow, if he can plow at all.

If you want one example of hard proof of the CIA’s involvement in this, and their approach to it, dig up `The Sabotage Manual’, that they were circulating throughout Nicaragua, a comic-book type of a paper, with visual explanations of what you can do to bring a society to a halt, how you can gum up typewriters, what you can pour in a gas tank to burn up engines, what you can stuff in a sewage to stop up the sewage so it won’t work, things you can do to make a society simply cease to function.

Systematically, the contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. You remember the assassination manual? that surfaced in 1984. It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror. This is a technique that they’re using to traumatize the society so that it can’t function.

I don’t mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these
things to the children.

This is nobody’s propaganda. There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they’ve happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way, mostly women and children. These are the activities done by these contras. The contras are the people president Reagan calls `freedom fighters’. He says they’re the moral equivalent of our founding fathers. And the whole world gasps at this confession of his family traditions.

I feel your pain, please email me privately if you would like to discuss this. I have been through your line of questioning, and have some personal feelings on this. (I have also listened to Steven Jones and Jack Monnett speak.)

kellysgarden@juno.com

For further discussion/insight on your question(s), I’ll direct you to this thread.

The current doctrine today is somewhat like this, “We must follow the current living prophet even more than the dead ones.
I was at a meeting which Steven Jones, Jack Monnett and Susan Monnet were speaking. They reaffirmed that we must follow that doctrine. They were also speaking of the 9/11 attack and evidence that this was no outside job that it was an inside job from our oun government and about secret combinations in reference of our own government being the bigger threat. Thats great and i believe that, so naturally to follow the above doctrine i must turn to my religious leaders to confirm if what they are saying is true. I have read many good quotes from past authorities and church presidents talking about and even constructive criticism about the government. I have not heard any specific warnings from my leaders to us about our own government being the threat. The three above mentioned in my own opinion seem to be doing to duty that I believe to be a prophets duty. The three mentioned above not just give us general warning like saying, “there are seceret combonations in the world”, but they also give us a warning of who is doing these thing now. My current leaders are not. Is there something holding my leaders that they cannot be specific about who is involved in these murderous acts? Isn’t it a prophets duty to do such when such kind of event happens and the people are unaware of who they should believe when political leaders put a blame on some one? I believe I would be held accountable if i shed innocent blood of those that didn’t actually do the attacks. So to end my writing I will make the point that what these three persons mentioned above what they bring to light is true and is obviously a warning of danger from within our government, and my leaders are not doing their duty as prophets, seers and revelators and say nothing of who is involved so i can make a better judgment on where this government should take it’s direction. Or the three above are teaching falsehoods and misleading people to believe that our own government would do such a evil act or even suggest it to criticis or political leaders because my living prophets have not spoken any such detail on the matter indirectly saying that our government is a good one and our political leaders are leading us in good place that we can trust our government leader in what they are doing.

I hope this makes sense to some and if not please respond that I may elaborate more for a better understanding.

I had a dream the other night, I did not understand.

There was a figure walking through the mist with a flintlock in his hand.

His clothes were torn and tattered, as he stood there by my bed.

He took off his three cornered hat, and speaking low, he said:

“We fought a revolution to secure our liberty,

and we wrote the constitution as a shield from tyranny.

For our future generations, this legacy we gave,

in this the land of the free, and home of the brave.

The freedom we secured for you, we hoped you’d always keep.

But tyrants labored endlessly while your parents were asleep.

Your freedom gone, your courage lost, you’re no more than a slave

in this land of the free and home of the brave.

You buy “permits” to travel, and “permits” to own a gun,

“permits” to start a business, and “permits” to build a home.

You live on land you believe to be your own,

but you pay a yearly rent, just to keep a home.

Your children attend a school that doesn’t educate,

and your moral values can’t be taught, according to the state.

You read about news in a very biased press,

and you pay a tax you do not owe to please the IRS.

Your money is no longer made of silver or of gold;

you have traded your wealth for paper, so your life can be controlled.

You are just a number, there’s no family honor that you hold.

You’ve given government control, to those who do you harm,

as they padlock your businesses and steal the family farm.

Can you regain the freedom for which we fought and died?

Or don’t you have the courage, or the faith to stand with pride?

Just what would you fight to save?

Aren’t you sick of being just a government slave?

Sons of the Republic, arise and take a stand!

Defend our Constitution, the supreme law of the land.

Preserve our great republic, and each God given right!

And pray to God to keep the torch of freedom burning bright.”

As I awoke he vanished in a mist from whence he came.

His words were true, we are not free, and we have ourselves to blame.

For even now as tyrants trample our God given rights,

we only stand and tremble, too afraid to stand and fight.

If he stood by your bedside in a dream while you were asleep,

and asked you what had happened to the rights he died to keep,

What would be your answer if he called out from the grave?

“Is This Still The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave?”

The End.

I enjoyed your comment very much. Honestly opening our minds to new ideas and seeking guidance through personal study, prayer, reading of the scriptures, and the Holy Ghost is the only way any of us can discern truth among so much deception and error. Thanks for your insights!

Years ago (2003 to be exact) I would’ve sided with and shared the same oppinion as Kurt. I was born in the church to ‘goodly parents’ in Utah County. I went to church weekly, baptised at 8, etc. etc. Prior to 2003, I struggled with my testimony and life in general. I asked myself ‘life questions’ such questions as, “Why am I LDS?” and, “What do I really believe?” Many in the world and throughout history have asked these same questions to one degree or another. I am not the only one that has asked these same questions. Among the barrage of questions was why I affiliated with the political party that I did at that time. This and the other questions mentioned above led me to search the Book of Mormon to answer these questions. It became apparent that the scriptures are for spiritual answers as well as answers to our personal lives… politics included.

I would like to ask Kurt (or anyone for that matter) what President Hinkley meant by the following statement:

“The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today’s society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems.
I know of no other writing which sets forth with such clarity the tragic consequences to societies that follow courses contrary to the commandments of God. Its pages trace the stories of two distinct civilizations that flourished on the Western Hemisphere. Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.”

(Gordon B. Hinckley, 2005 italics and bold added)

Ask yourself if we are more free today than we were 5, 50 or 200 years ago? There is a famus quote that says something to the effect of the war in heaven continues to be fought here on earth. As we all know, the war in heaven was over our agency and to give the power and control to Satan. If this war is being fought on earth today how would Satan ‘win’ this war? He has and will do it as described in the scriptures. It worked effectively in ancient civilizations and it will work effectively in modern civilizations. I quote President Hinkley:

“The Book of Mormon speaks of the Gadianton robbers, a vicious, oath-bound, and secret organization bent on evil and destruction. In their day they did all in their power, by whatever means available, to bring down the Church, to woo the people with sophistry, and to take control of the society. We see the same thing in the present situation.”

(Gordon B. Hinkley, “The times in which we live” January 2002)

Those that share the same oppinion as Kurt, please do not attack those of opposing views. It’s alright that we have opposing views. God gave us distinct minds and therefore we will have distinct views. Take the time to study, pray and be open minded to new ideas, even if they don’t agree with your current views because you never know when your views might be changed due to your own understanding and interpretation with the help and confirmation of the Holy Ghost… just like mine did. Instead of looking for answers and arguing to such questions and oppinions here on a blog, truely and honestly open your mind, the corridor to prayer and read the Book of Mormon with such questions in mind. Thanks to all (yes, Kurt too) for such a great blog.

This is absolutely the greatest work you have accomplished since I have been an adherent to your blog site. I have emailed the author to request a printed compilation if one is available. I would like to be able to distribute this valuable information to as many members in my area as possible. I am certain that the followers of General Moroni are preparing to rise up sufficiently to bring justice to those who would give away their freedom for the ill perceived notion of security offered by the adversary.

Your wisdom and insight far exceeds your detractors, and I find it a pity that those who vigorously strive to stifle your work will not permit themselves to partake of truthful enlightenment. Apparently many cannot let themselves discover humility sufficient to overcome their destructive prideful personalities. I sincerely hope they will consider their puny existence upon this earth sufficient to save themselves from that which is coming. Their fate will be an absolutely heart wrenching experience if they do not shake themselves loose from their grasp upon the arm of flesh.

Keep up the good work Connor. You are certainly a blessing to those of us who are able to discern your humble efforts to guide us away from the evil circumstances in which we find ourselves in this land. You will be leading others toward salvation when the naysayers are merely wandering aimlessly in the shadows of the images of Satan, and his minions.

The scriptures are full of political ideas. God’s kingdom will one day be a political kingdom, not just a spiritual one and many, if not all, of the political principles that it will be built upon are already in our Standard Works.

To just blindly discount this is to discount a large portion of the scriptures, and the words of latter-day prophets.

Here comes another pea in a pod for you.

Ezra Taft Benson, standing as President of the Church gave great insight as to something he—a Seer—could see as to those who “see” and understand. In the 1986 First Presidency Christmas Devotional, this Prophet, Seer, and Revelator dropped this bomb shell as to what he saw within the church, the seemingly apparent division of people:

“I have noted within the Church a difference in discernment, insight, conviction, and spirit between those who know and love the Book of Mormon and those who do not. That book is a great sifter.” (“News of the Church,” Ensign, Mar. 1987, 75)

So if there are those within the Church that seemingly lack “discernment, insight, conviction and spirit” for not using the Book of Mormon and loving it, then it’s not myself, Connor or others stating this to be the case, but the Lord Himself through his prophets. It is also spoken to us that “our minds” have been darkened for having treated lightly the Book of Mormon, and this condemnation we are under will remain until we repent of this, and indeed wake up to the great and powerful book of Mormon messages, which you recoil at it seems, even stating that such things are “out of context.” Reed Benson, who taught the Book of Mormon at BYU stated that a full one third of the Book of Mormon speaks to warfare and secret combinations, yet you accuse Connor of being “way out there” in terms of modern application of such teachings from a book written for our day?

Let us all make sure we are using that sacred book of Scripture as we must in order to get out from under condemnation, a scourge and judgement, which the entire church suffers under.

Sure (although I still have a lot of research to do, as this subject is pretty new to me). This is what I got out of it:
Hearing all the quotes from the prophets in the Book of Mormon and those in latter days was very powerful, emphasizing the reality of secret combinations, the effect they have had and will have if we do not expose them and destroy them, and the personal accountability we will each face if we allow ourselves to be deceived and help support them. I do not want to be deceived any further (as I realize I have been in the past) and so I have a great interest in knowing how to recognize them.

The quotes from others were directed to some possibilities of modern secret combinations. They were powerful too because they were direct quotes from people either witnessing the acts of an organization, or involved in one themselves. I had never heard many of these quotes before and they were pretty shocking admissions. I don’t know much about the Illuminati, but now I know the stated intent of the organization from the words of it’s own founder and that its principles go against those of the gospel. Same with communism. I was born too late to hear President Benson and others comment about it, but now I know why they opposed the philosophy.

The thing that made the biggest impression on me was how the principles behind all these organizations seemed very similar. Taking away individual freedoms granted by the constitution, destroying religion, morality, the family unit, property rights, etc and imposing some type of force on mankind. Wherever we see evidence of these things, we should not support them — no matter the name that goes with it or where we find it.

And would you like to provide the pithy 5 sentence summary of that slide show?

Well, from my viewpoint, the slideshow was a call for awakening to the secret combinations, that as members of the LDS faith, we all know were prophesied to exist among us in these latter days. It gives substantial evidence for their existence from prophetic quotes, and some possibilities as to where their influence might be found. Some of these possibilities include the Illuminati, Communism, Socialism, the United Nations, and the recent/current United States government. The observer is left with the feeling that he/she needs to look into the fruits/goals of these organizations or individuals more closely (and possibly many others) and compare them with Satan’s goals. Our hope lies in “awakening” to the truth of what is going on and studying the principles of the constitution in order to preserve and defend it.

Doesnt the simple fact that the presentation jumps back and forth through time while glossing over huge political chasms of differences to attempt to make its point make you wonder?

It was clear to me that the reason for jumping back and forth through time was because the quotes were not arranged chronologically, but rather by subject:
First, warnings of sc in the latter days
Next, understanding their character and goals
Preparing ourselves to accept the truth
Looking for evidence (this one had many sub-groups like propaganda, media, schools, morality, economic issues, etc)
What to do next

I thought it was well organized and informative. If you don’t look at it with an open mind and a desire to learn, though, I guess it would be easy to discount it as a senseless conspiracy theory (as the world makes this stuff appear to be). But still, how do you account for the powerful quotes? They shouldn’t be taken lightly.

Please tell me how you interpret this quote by George Q. Cannon:

There is that terrible tradition, that has such strong hold of all our minds, that the Priesthood of God and the religion of Jesus Christ have nothing to do particularly with temporal matters. It is a tradition almost as old as Christianity. It has come down to us for generations and centuries and is fully interwoven in the hearts, minds and feelings of the children of men, and it is an exceedingly difficult thing to get them to comprehend that temporal things and spiritual things are alike in the sight of God, that there is no line of demarcation between the two, that the religion of Jesus Christ applies to one as much as another and comprehends within its scope temporal equally with spiritual matters. (George Q. Cannon, 1879,Gospel Truth 1:350)

If the scriptures are never political, how do you account for D&C sections 98 and 101 and especially section 134?

Just because Jesus didn’t overthrow the Romans and establish a perfect theocracy while he was alive does not mean he is not concerned about government.

To me, “the truth shall set you free” is about TRUTH — wherever it is found. It very well can pertain to political enlightenment, among many other things. Who are we to place limitations on God’s counsel to us? One of the footnotes from the word “truth” in John 8:32 is a cross reference to D&C 50:25 which says:

And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you;

To me, it says recognizing and accepting truth will allow us to free ourselves from the powers of darkness. I think it can have many applications including freeing ourselves from sin, guilt, and false ideas.