yep…

Considering how the attitude of government officials has changed, and also considering how many people have joined the Church in America since those prophesies were made, isn’t it possible that God will hold off some of the scourges and calamities for a while?

Although the evils of today are trumpeted and even celebrated in the mainstream media, are there not tens of millions of Americans who accept Jesus Christ as Savior, and who are trying their best to live God’s commandments as far as they understand them?

How many faithful LDS do there need to be in Boston (where we have a temple) and New York (where we also now have a temple) in order to stave off the desolation of those cities?

I was a teenager in a suburb of NYC when the Church announced that it would build a stake center in Manhattan (within which the temple is now located). I wondered why they were pouring money into that project when NYC was doomed to destruction. My parents wisely taught me that in every age members tend to think that the Second Coming is imminent, but that the Lord’s time frame is obviously not the same as ours.

I’m sure that all prophecies will be fulfilled, but since many are conditional, is there not reason to hope that many more people will repent, and thus not every detail of President Woodruff’s predictions need come to pass?

Considering how the attitude of government officials has changed, and also considering how many people have joined the Church in America since those prophesies were made, isn’t it possible that God will hold off some of the scourges and calamities for a while

And that’s my point. All of the quotes that Connor laid out (which I knew he would—so predictable Mr. Boyack!), are actually conditional, and not prophecies of certainty. Let me give you an example of a prophecy of certainty:

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound ain the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the anumber of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

Now THAT my friends is a prophecy of certainty, not based on any condition of repentance. It WILL happen. That is Revelation chapter 9.

So again, Connor, show me examples of prophecies of certainty of the destruction of America. I doubt you will find any.

of course I read the quotes. The question is, do you understand what a prophecy of certainty is? It is unconditional. i.e. it will happen regardless of whether a nation is good or bad, or a people follow God or not. The Second Coming, for example, is another prophecy of certainty. It WILL happen no matter what.

Now, note for example in your first citation the conditional “if”:

“They shall have mobbings to their hearts’ content, if they do not redress the wrongs of the Latter-day Saints.”

Should I point out the conditionals in all of your examples, or can you find them on your own?

Let’s just, for the fun of it, look at your second example, from Gerald Lund, as he is a closer example to our time, and not from the mid-1800s:

For a desolating scourge shall go forth among the inhabitants of the earth, and shall continue to be poured out from time to time, if they repent not, until the earth is empty, and the inhabitants thereof are consumed away and utterly destroyed by the brightness of my coming.

Oh! There’s that dratted conditional!

Oh I can’t stop now, let’s look at Wilford Woodruff’s example, the next one on your list:

The American nation will be broken in pieces like a potter’s vessel, and will be cast down to hell, if it does not repent, and this, because of murders, whoredoms, wickedness, and all manner of abominations, for the Lord has spoken it.

Dang, for some reason they just can’t seem to get away from that dastardly conditional!

I’m sure you can find that conditional in the rest of your examples. Now since you have failed in showing examples of prophecies of certainty, I give you one more chance. Com’on Connor, show me what you got. Show me the money!

Dan:

Thanks for the laughs. Wow you just don’t get it. I feel sorry for you. Why is it that Mormon Democrats seem to always be the members of the church that have the biggest problems with following the words of the prophets? Why is it that Mormon Democrats seem to put party before church, god and reason?

Dan, I think you need to sit down and have a serious talk with yourself. Church or party? Your eternal salvation depends on the answer to that question.

okay, Connor, let’s go through the rest of the list, then.

Next on the list is John Taylor who says:

The Lord never did bring judgment upon any people of any generation until he raised up prophets to warn them of the impending danger. . . . And so it will be with our nation and all others, when they shall reject the message that is sent to them.

I don’t see how this is a prophecy of certainty, meaning that our nation will be destroyed, no matter what. It is again conditional upon whether or not the people reject or accept the message. Now, John Taylor says “when” not “if” but if we put his warning in the context of Joseph Smith’s, Wilford Woodruff’s and Brigham Young’s, which all use the “if” clause, we can pretty well infer that John Taylor didn’t see the inexorable destruction of our nation regardless of whether we were righteous or wicked, but rather that our nation would be destroyed when we chose to be wicked. Again, conditional.

Next.

Joseph Smith:

While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government.

Note the conditional.

Next.

John Taylor, this quote is from twenty years earlier, and requires context. Please provide context so we can fully understand what he is saying here. Thank you.

Next.

Wilford Woodruff. This is a conditional prophecy. Note that he says that as the wickedness rises, America’s future is like that of the Nephites and Lamanites, but again, this is conditional upon how wicked we are vs. how righteous we are. Continuing down a wicked path will eventually lead to destruction. But this is not a prophecy of certainty. Let me define it again. A prophecy of certainty is one that will occur no matter what, no matter how righteous or how wicked a people are. No condition is placed upon that prophecy to be considered a prophecy of certainty.

Next.

Orson Pratt. Again conditional upon how righteous or wicked we are. Orson Pratt also says this: “He will speedily fulfill the prophecy in relation to the overthrow of this nation, and their destruction.” Can you do me a favor and cite to me the prophecy he is talking about.

Next.

Brigham Young.

The nation that kills the prophets of God in any age must expect to reap cursings instead of blessings, unless it speedily repent.

Note the conditional.

Next.

The First Presidency.

A drunken nation cannot expect that God will withhold His judgments, nor ward off the ravages of the Destroyer.

Note the conditional, a wicked nation of course cannot expect that God will withhold his judgments.

Next.

Orson Pratt, again.

But that great–that powerful nation–is destined to an utter overthrow. If it be asked, why is America to suffer? The answer is, because they have rejected the kingdom of God, and one of the greatest divine messages ever sent to man;

Again, not the conditional. It will suffer because it rejected the kingdom. But of course, if it does not reject the kingdom, can it be overthrown? Of course not. Conditional. Yet again.

Next.

John Taylor.

The sins of this nation, the licentiousness, the debauchery, the murders are entering into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and I tell you now, from the tops of these mountains, as a humble servant of the living God, that unless these cries and infamies are stopped, this nation will be overthrown and its glory, power, dominion and wealth will fade away like the dews of a summer morning.

Note the conditional.

So again, are there any actual examples of this country being destroyed that is not based on the condition of righteousness/wickedness? I don’t think so.

Next.

You know, I don’t think you guys really have to be so much at odds here. Most prophecies are conditional. Jonah’s prophesy to the people of Ninevah said that they would be destroyed with no conditions mentioned in the scriptures we have. The people repented and were not destroyed.

I think it must be the same for America. Though the prophesies are conditional (point for Dan), the conditions are being fulfilled by the American people and we are ripe for the prophesies to be fulfilled (point for Connor).

In spite of the conditional nature of the prophesies we have read here, I believe that a large part of our nation will be destroyed because of our stubborness and track record of refusing to repent as a people. Secret Combinations control our country. A portion of the righteous will be spared I believe, but we have a lot of buffeting to endure before the New Jerusalem is set up on this continent.

Some of these prophecies have already at least been partially fulfilled. The nation broken as a potter’s vessel? Hmmm…. Didn’t that happen during the Civil War and its aftermath? Mobbings? What about lynchings in the South for a century after the Civil War? What about the race riots and the anti-war riots during the 60s?

Let’s broaden our horizons here, folks. Not everything in these prophecies necessarily implies a single massive catastrophe. How about many smaller (or even larger) catastrophies and uprisings over time? How about a general weakening of the U.S. Government (the Constitution) over time, due to these effects?

And lest we get all smug about our righteousness, how about the prophecies that state that the calamaties will begin among the Saints first?

Of course prophecy is conditional upon repentance.

To God, all things are before him, past, present, and future are one eternal “Now.” So can he spare people and nations if they repent? Of course, and thus is the intent of prophecy, to warn of the consequence and failure to repent. But given that all things before God are one eternal “now” he can determine and know if people will repent or not. God knows the future perfectly, does he not? Therefore, can he spell out some prophecy telling of the reality of what will occur? Yes. And there are some cases that can be found where this is the case.

Is America Doomed? Wilford Woodruff so stated it is. Joseph Fielding Smith so stated it is.

So there are things that can be changed, but there are some things seen, the fact that repentance has not occurred in the future. So what of the judgements and calamities coming? Ezra Taft Benson even warned us that the calamities are coming, and if we decieve ourselves to think they will be put aside because of the “righteousness of the saints” then we shall rue the day. Specifically he said, and this is not conditional:

“Too often we bask in our comfortable complacency and rationalize that the ravages of war, economic disaster, famine, and earthquake cannot happen here. Those who believe this are either not acquainted with the revelations of the Lord, or they do not believe them. Those who smugly think these calamities will not happen, that they somehow will be set aside because of the righteousness of the Saints, are deceived and will rue the day they harbored such a delusion. (Ezra Taft Benson, “Prepare for the Days of Tribulation,” Ensign, Nov. 1980, 32.)

Bruce R. McConkie that same year warned, and note some things have “if” clauses, and others do not. Some things are assured, but for all of us as individuals, we have “if” clauses that can change our outcome in future events, and I suppose this too applies to families, and nations:

But the vision of the future is not all sweetness and light and peace. All that is yet to be shall go forward in the midst of greater evils and perils and desolations than have been known on earth at any time.

As the Saints prepare to meet their God, so those who are carnal and sensual and devilish prepare to face their doom.
As the meek among men make their calling and election sure, so those who worship the God of this world sink ever lower and lower into the depths of depravity and despair.

Amid tears of sorrow—our hearts heavy with forebodings—we see evil and crime and carnality covering the earth. Liars and thieves and adulterers and homosexuals and murderers scarcely seek to hide their abominations from our view. Iniquity abounds. There is no peace on earth.

We see evil forces everywhere uniting to destroy the family, to ridicule morality and decency, to glorify all that is lewd and base. We see wars and plagues and pestilence. Nations rise and fall. Blood and carnage and death are everywhere. Gadianton robbers fill the judgment seats in many nations. An evil power seeks to overthrow the freedom of all nations and countries. Satan reigns in the hearts of men; it is the great day of his power.

But amid it all, the work of the Lord rolls on. The gospel is preached and the witness is born. The elect of God forsake the traditions of their fathers and the ways of the world. The kingdom grows and prospers, for the Lord is with his people.
Amid it all, there are revelations and visions and prophecies. There are gifts and signs and miracles. There is a rich outpouring of the Holy Spirit of God.

Amid it all believing souls are born again, their souls are sanctified by the power of the Spirit, and they prepare themselves to dwell with God and Christ and holy beings in the eternal kingdom.

Is it any wonder that we both rejoice and tremble at what lies ahead?

Truly the world is and will be in commotion, but the Zion of God will be unmoved. The wicked and ungodly shall be swept from the Church, and the little stone will continue to grow until it fills the whole earth.

The way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. There will yet be martyrs; the doors in Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We have not been promised that the trials and evils of the world will entirely pass us by.

If we, as a people, keep the commandments of God; if we take the side of the Church on all issues, both religious and political; if we take the Holy Spirit for our guide; if we give heed to the words of the apostles and prophets who minister among us—then, from an eternal standpoint, all things will work together for our good. (Bruce R. McConkie, “The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory,” Ensign, May 1980, 71.)

The year previous to this, Elder McConkie shared this:

I stand before the Church this day and raise the warning voice. It is a prophetic voice, for I shall say only what the apostles and prophets have spoken concerning our day…

For the moment we live in a day of peace and prosperity but it shall not ever be thus. Great trials lie ahead. All of the sorrows and perils of the past are but a foretaste of what is yet to be. And we must prepare ourselves temporally and spiritually.

The Church, which administers the gospel, and the Saints who have received the gospel, must be independent of all the powers of earth, as they work out their salvation—temporally and spiritually—with fear and trembling before the Lord!

Be it remembered that tribulations lie ahead. There will be wars in one nation and kingdom after another until war is poured out upon all nations and two hundred million men of war mass their armaments at Armageddon.

Peace has been taken from the earth, the angels of destruction have begun their work, and their swords shall not be sheathed until the Prince of Peace comes to destroy the wicked and usher in the great Millennium.

There will be earthquakes and floods and famines. The waves of the sea shall heave themselves beyond their bounds, the clouds shall withhold their rain, and the crops of the earth shall wither and die.

There will be plagues and pestilence and disease and death. An overflowing scourge shall cover the earth and a desolating sickness shall sweep the land. Flies shall take hold of the inhabitants of the earth, and maggots shall come in upon them. (See D&C 29:14–20.) “Their flesh shall fall from off their bones, and their eyes from their sockets” (D&C 29:19).

Bands of Gadianton robbers will infest every nation, immorality and murder and crime will increase, and it will seem as though every man’s hand is against his brother.

We need not dwell more upon these things. We are commanded to search the scriptures where they are recounted with force and fervor, and they shall surely come to pass.

It is one of the sad heresies of our time that peace will be gained by weary diplomats as they prepare treaties of compromise, or that the Millennium will be ushered in because men will learn to live in peace and to keep the commandments, or that the predicted plagues and promised desolations of latter days can in some way be avoided.

We must do all we can to proclaim peace, to avoid war, to heal disease, to prepare for natural disasters—but with it all, that which is to be shall be.

We do not know when the calamities and troubles of the last days will fall upon any of us as individuals or upon bodies of the Saints. The Lord deliberately withholds from us the day and hour of his coming and of the tribulations which shall precede it—all as part of the testing and probationary experiences of mortality. He simply tells us to watch and be ready.

We can rest assured that if we have done all in our power to prepare for whatever lies ahead, he will then help us with whatever else we need.

He rained manna from heaven upon all Israel, six days each week for forty years, lest they perish for want of bread, but the manna ceased on the morrow after they ate of the parched corn of Canaan. Then they were required to supply their own food. (See Ex. 16:3–4, 35.)

During forty years in the wilderness the clothes worn by all Israel waxed not old and their shoes wore not out, but when they entered their promised land, then the Lord required them to provide their own wearing apparel. (See Deut. 29:5.)

When there was a famine in the land, at Elijah’s word, a certain barrel of meal did not waste, and a certain cruse of oil did not fail, until the Lord sent again rain on the earth. And it is worthy of note, as Jesus said, that though there were many widows in Israel, unto one only was Elijah sent. (See 1 Kgs. 17:10–16.)

We do not say that all of the Saints will be spared and saved from the coming day of desolation. But we do say there is no promise of safety and no promise of security except for those who love the Lord and who are seeking to do all that he commands.

It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of faith and the authority of the priesthood can save individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts that surely shall be.
And so we raise the warning voice and say: Take heed; prepare; watch and be ready. There is no security in any course except the course of obedience and conformity and righteousness. (Bruce R. McConkie, “Stand Independent above All Other Creatures,” Ensign, May 1979, 92)

Perhaps I’ve not added anything really in resolving anything for anyone, but hopefully some will enjoy these not to distant (in the past) prophetic statements. There seems to be indication that some prophecy does indeed contain the invitation to change the outcome through change and repentance, and other prophecy doesn’t always give that. I just recently listened to a talk by Joseph Fielding Smith that played on BYU’s radio station on Sunday. He spoke there of the plain fact that prophesied judgments are coming, and the LDS church will not escape it entirely. It is a most interesting talk, given in 1967 at BYU.

It is believed that there will be a president elected just prior to this 13th month war.
That he would be elected but never offically take oath due to an attack by the russians who would likely take out our communications and power etc…

hence marshal law and you get the rest.
I would love to get a referance as to where this believed prophecy originates from.
I believe it may be in the book…”behold the fig tree.

As far as Temples and safe “havens”
Temples must have a holy of holies this is the Lord’s Pattern.

The rest are endowment houses and Joesph smith and Brigham young spoke alot on this matter.

Also concerning safe havens the church will set up “tent cities” and will travel from place to place just cause something may be a “temple does in no way mean you will be protected therein.
Look at history.

Faith along with honoring the priesthood may be the only “saving grace”
Follow the spirit.

Besides the Salt Lake Temple, which temples have a Holy of Holies?

I’ve heard that Salt Lake City is going to be one of the most evil cities in the world in the last days before the Second Coming. Is this true and are there any quotes about this?

Christie,

You are referring to Heber C. Kimball’s prophecy, here it is:

“An Army of Elders will be sent the the four quarters of the earth to search out the righteous and warn the wicked of what is coming. All kinds of religions will be started and miracles performed that will decieve the very elect if that were possible. Our sons and daughters must live pure lives so as to be prepared for what is coming.

“After a while the gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage.

“Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do. Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. The judgments of God wil be poured out on the wicked to the extent that our Elders from far and near will be called home, or in other words the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later carried to the Jews.

“The western boundary of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, when you return to that place, there will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.

“Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to tests that will try the integrity of the best of them. The preasure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.

“Then the prophet and others will make their appearance and those who have remained faithful will be selected to return to Jackson County, Missouri, and take part in the upbuilding of that beautiful city, the New Jerusalem. (Prophesy of Heber C. Kimball, Deseret News, May 23, 1931.) (Also quoted in Prophesy and Modern Times by W. Cleon Skousen pp. 31-32)

Also, additionally these prophetic words also by Heber C. Kimball should be made note of:

Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1963, p.16

Those of us who think “. . . all is well in Zion . . .” (2 Nephi 28:21) in spite of Book of Mormon warning might ponder the words of Heber C. Kimball when he said, “Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills . . . but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God. Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.” (Heber C. Kimball, 1856.
Quoted by J. Golden Kimball, Conference Report, October1930, pp. 59-60.)