Comments on: Thankimony or Testimony? http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony Rants and musings about things political, philosophical, and religious. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 02:51:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jason http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-49321 Jason Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:43:46 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-49321 I kept a count today, though I decided to do it a little differently than Connor did last month. I decide to do estimate at the end of the person's time at the pulpit how much of the time was spent bearing a testimony, a thankimony, and story. The reason I decided to just estimate the percentage of time rather than counting "I'm thankful vs. I know" is that it can be argued that some times someone will start with an "I'm thankful" and at the end of explaining the thing they are thankful for end with what is essentially a testimony of that principle. Here are my numbers: <b> Testimony: 38.3% Thankimony: 36.7% Story: 25% </b> I was pleasantly surprised to see that the story time was significantly smaller than each of the other two metrics as it is easy for someone to go into great detail about a story to at the end say how it increased their testimony of a principle. The other thought I had as I was tracking this information today, the "themes" or patterns of a particular testimony meeting can be greatly influenced by one or two individuals. That is to say, if one person puts an emphasis on things they are thankful for, it can put that thought into people's minds and influence what subsequent people are likely to spend time on and if you get one or two people to bear really simple powerful testimonies, it can have a similar effect. I kept a count today, though I decided to do it a little differently than Connor did last month. I decide to do estimate at the end of the person’s time at the pulpit how much of the time was spent bearing a testimony, a thankimony, and story. The reason I decided to just estimate the percentage of time rather than counting “I’m thankful vs. I know” is that it can be argued that some times someone will start with an “I’m thankful” and at the end of explaining the thing they are thankful for end with what is essentially a testimony of that principle. Here are my numbers:


Testimony: 38.3%
Thankimony: 36.7%
Story: 25%

I was pleasantly surprised to see that the story time was significantly smaller than each of the other two metrics as it is easy for someone to go into great detail about a story to at the end say how it increased their testimony of a principle.

The other thought I had as I was tracking this information today, the “themes” or patterns of a particular testimony meeting can be greatly influenced by one or two individuals. That is to say, if one person puts an emphasis on things they are thankful for, it can put that thought into people’s minds and influence what subsequent people are likely to spend time on and if you get one or two people to bear really simple powerful testimonies, it can have a similar effect.

]]> By: Connor http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-49310 Connor Sun, 02 Dec 2007 19:30:47 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-49310 The results are in for this month's meeting: <img src="/blog/images/thankimony2.jpg"/> My wife suggested I keep track of whether it was a brother, sister, or child, as she suspected that the sisters would have more thankimony than testimony. Turns out she was right. The results are in for this month’s meeting:

My wife suggested I keep track of whether it was a brother, sister, or child, as she suspected that the sisters would have more thankimony than testimony. Turns out she was right.

]]> By: Josh Williams http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40748 Josh Williams Wed, 07 Nov 2007 02:56:36 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40748 I'll have to remember to take a tally of my own during the next few months. Maybe I'll try recording such additional variables, as the overall length, how often the savior, prophet, or BoM is mentioned, how often friends, family, and personal problems are mentioned, etc... Data from only 11 samples is anecdotal at best, far to little to draw any kind of meaningful conclusions. I think this warrants much more rigorous inquiry, into the phenomenon of "Thanktimony." Who knows what sort of surprising (and entertaining) trends might be uncovered....:-) I’ll have to remember to take a tally of my own during the next few months. Maybe I’ll try recording such additional variables, as the overall length, how often the savior, prophet, or BoM is mentioned, how often friends, family, and personal problems are mentioned, etc…

Data from only 11 samples is anecdotal at best, far to little to draw any kind of meaningful conclusions. I think this warrants much more rigorous inquiry, into the phenomenon of “Thanktimony.”

Who knows what sort of surprising (and entertaining) trends might be uncovered….:-)

]]> By: Connor http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40635 Connor Tue, 06 Nov 2007 06:02:32 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40635 <strong>Kaela</strong>, <em>I’m not trying to pick a fight, or even play “devil’s advocate” but were you listening to the testimonies, or just counting their words?</em> Both. :) <em>Not everyone is a wonderful public speaker...</em> I agree! But I'm not critiquing people's speaking abilities - I'm critiquing what they're speaking <em>about</em>. Much like a person doesn't go to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting to talk about sports, one shouldn't go to bear their testimony and instead list the things they're thankful for. That's not what a testimony is. Testimony = testify. I'm grateful for many things as well. And I'm not saying that I bear the best testimonies - mine sometimes include thankimony elements as well. I simply wanted to observe how my ward did this week. Kaela,

I’m not trying to pick a fight, or even play “devil’s advocate” but were you listening to the testimonies, or just counting their words?

Both. :)

Not everyone is a wonderful public speaker…

I agree! But I’m not critiquing people’s speaking abilities – I’m critiquing what they’re speaking about. Much like a person doesn’t go to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting to talk about sports, one shouldn’t go to bear their testimony and instead list the things they’re thankful for. That’s not what a testimony is. Testimony = testify.

I’m grateful for many things as well. And I’m not saying that I bear the best testimonies – mine sometimes include thankimony elements as well. I simply wanted to observe how my ward did this week.

]]> By: Jason http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40633 Jason Tue, 06 Nov 2007 05:32:20 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40633 Kaela: Connor's original post did point out, and I agree, that is not so much that "Thankimonies" are bad or evil as much as overly common and missing the deeper spiritual purpose of the bearing of testimonies <blockquote> My experience throughout the Church leads me to worry that too many of our members’ testimonies linger on “I am thankful” and “I love,” and too few are able to say with humble but sincere clarity, “I know.” </blockquote> Also, at least in my experience, the members bearing these "thankimonies" are experienced, lifelong members who should have no trouble with the English language or expressing the things they know to be true as a result of experiences with the spirit and answers to prayers. I have never demeaned (especially within myself) a member that bears a clumsy testimony because of language, education, nervousness, lack of experience with the gospel, etc... What I instead see is a tradition, an accepted practice, of standing up at the stand to tell stories and say that they are "so grateful/thankful for..." Kaela: Connor’s original post did point out, and I agree, that is not so much that “Thankimonies” are bad or evil as much as overly common and missing the deeper spiritual purpose of the bearing of testimonies

My experience throughout the Church leads me to worry that too many of our members’ testimonies linger on “I am thankful” and “I love,” and too few are able to say with humble but sincere clarity, “I know.”

Also, at least in my experience, the members bearing these “thankimonies” are experienced, lifelong members who should have no trouble with the English language or expressing the things they know to be true as a result of experiences with the spirit and answers to prayers. I have never demeaned (especially within myself) a member that bears a clumsy testimony because of language, education, nervousness, lack of experience with the gospel, etc… What I instead see is a tradition, an accepted practice, of standing up at the stand to tell stories and say that they are “so grateful/thankful for…”

]]> By: Jay http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40620 Jay Tue, 06 Nov 2007 03:02:46 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40620 I agree. In a recent stake conference, we had a general authority presiding and he instructed the bishoprics on the very topic of fast and testimony meetings. He instructed us that there is a right way and a wrong way to bear a testimony, but that we should teach by example. He said that a testimony should be brief and that that we should testify of some gospel truth, such as the atonement, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, the Savior, etc., A testimony should not go over 2-3 minutes. But more importantly, he said that it is the duty of every Melchizedek priesthood holder to not allow long moments of silence go by and that if there is ever someone on the stand bearing their testimony and nobody is sitting on the stand waiting for their turn, we are responsible to get up there. That has to be balanced with the other things he said which is to not be like the kind of people who get up every month. He said that every worthy adult is obligated to bear their testimony at least once a year, but more than three or four times a year is probably too often. He also said that a brief expression of gratitude is fine. Jay I agree. In a recent stake conference, we had a general authority presiding and he instructed the bishoprics on the very topic of fast and testimony meetings. He instructed us that there is a right way and a wrong way to bear a testimony, but that we should teach by example. He said that a testimony should be brief and that that we should testify of some gospel truth, such as the atonement, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, the Savior, etc., A testimony should not go over 2-3 minutes. But more importantly, he said that it is the duty of every Melchizedek priesthood holder to not allow long moments of silence go by and that if there is ever someone on the stand bearing their testimony and nobody is sitting on the stand waiting for their turn, we are responsible to get up there. That has to be balanced with the other things he said which is to not be like the kind of people who get up every month. He said that every worthy adult is obligated to bear their testimony at least once a year, but more than three or four times a year is probably too often.

He also said that a brief expression of gratitude is fine.

Jay

]]> By: dstoker http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40603 dstoker Tue, 06 Nov 2007 00:19:01 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40603 You make some good points Kaela. You make some good points Kaela.

]]> By: Kaela http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40601 Kaela Tue, 06 Nov 2007 00:05:49 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40601 I'm not trying to pick a fight, or even play "devil's advocate" but were you listening to the testimonies, or just counting their words? Not everyone is a wonderful public speaker, and as I noticed at the testimony meeting this last Sunday, sometimes people don't know how (or know enough english) to say "I am grateful for this church....that I know is true!" They only know how to speak of their gratitude, which for them, illustrates the truth. They are bearing testimony of a Heavenly Father that loves them and blesses them, even if they are not outright saying "I know this is true" (although sometimes they said that as well). To me they were illustrating their belief with their experiences (although yes-sometimes these could be abbreviated). I'm not saying it's right or correct or the best testimonies I ever heard, but maybe instead of sitting in the audience judging, those who are thinking of these "thankimonies v. testimonies" should get up and show us all how it's done. Be an example! People will feel the Spirit when they hear the conviction in your words, and maybe you'll inspire people to bear true testimony themselves. I'm not sure there is a right or wrong way to bear your testimony, but I think expressing your gratitude can sometimes be a way for people to illustrate their testimony when they don't know how to do so otherwise. As someone who is "new" to the whole testimony thing...this doesn't make me too excited to get up and bear mine. I thought as active listeners we are supposed to be gleaning from what we hear on this day, feeling inspired and strengthened by the words and experiences of others. It's not public speaking class. I’m not trying to pick a fight, or even play “devil’s advocate” but were you listening to the testimonies, or just counting their words? Not everyone is a wonderful public speaker, and as I noticed at the testimony meeting this last Sunday, sometimes people don’t know how (or know enough english) to say “I am grateful for this church….that I know is true!” They only know how to speak of their gratitude, which for them, illustrates the truth. They are bearing testimony of a Heavenly Father that loves them and blesses them, even if they are not outright saying “I know this is true” (although sometimes they said that as well). To me they were illustrating their belief with their experiences (although yes-sometimes these could be abbreviated). I’m not saying it’s right or correct or the best testimonies I ever heard, but maybe instead of sitting in the audience judging, those who are thinking of these “thankimonies v. testimonies” should get up and show us all how it’s done. Be an example! People will feel the Spirit when they hear the conviction in your words, and maybe you’ll inspire people to bear true testimony themselves. I’m not sure there is a right or wrong way to bear your testimony, but I think expressing your gratitude can sometimes be a way for people to illustrate their testimony when they don’t know how to do so otherwise.
As someone who is “new” to the whole testimony thing…this doesn’t make me too excited to get up and bear mine. I thought as active listeners we are supposed to be gleaning from what we hear on this day, feeling inspired and strengthened by the words and experiences of others. It’s not public speaking class.

]]> By: Scott http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40565 Scott Mon, 05 Nov 2007 18:12:39 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40565 A few years ago our bishop began having youth testimony meetings during priesthood/YW twice each year. The first time he did this, there was a lot of thankimony stuff, plus a lot of people saying how great the bishop was, etc. At the end of the meeting, the bishop got up and said that while the natural man in him enjoyed having his ego stroked, he was "just some dufus that has been called to be your bishop for a few years." He told them that they didn't need a testimony of him; they needed a testimony of Christ as their personal Savior. They needed a testimony of the truthfulness of the restored gospel. He said gratitude is very important, but it should not be the central focus of bearing a testimony. The bishop challenged the youth to really get into their scriptures and engage in mighty prayer regularly over the next six months and then come ready to bear witness of Chirst and his workings in their personal lives. Youth leaders emphasized this over the next six months. The entire nature and spirit of the next youth testimony meeting was an amazingly different experience. It's very difficult for a bishop to effectively teach about bearing testimony just in Sacrament meeting. We need to regularly teach about this in our classes at all levels and in our family home evenings. A few years ago our bishop began having youth testimony meetings during priesthood/YW twice each year. The first time he did this, there was a lot of thankimony stuff, plus a lot of people saying how great the bishop was, etc.

At the end of the meeting, the bishop got up and said that while the natural man in him enjoyed having his ego stroked, he was “just some dufus that has been called to be your bishop for a few years.” He told them that they didn’t need a testimony of him; they needed a testimony of Christ as their personal Savior. They needed a testimony of the truthfulness of the restored gospel. He said gratitude is very important, but it should not be the central focus of bearing a testimony.

The bishop challenged the youth to really get into their scriptures and engage in mighty prayer regularly over the next six months and then come ready to bear witness of Chirst and his workings in their personal lives. Youth leaders emphasized this over the next six months. The entire nature and spirit of the next youth testimony meeting was an amazingly different experience.

It’s very difficult for a bishop to effectively teach about bearing testimony just in Sacrament meeting. We need to regularly teach about this in our classes at all levels and in our family home evenings.

]]> By: Michael H. Cox http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40508 Michael H. Cox Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:48:49 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40508 Thankimony and travel logs are the worst. A person today talked about getting a free bed and someone who only had 1 pair of shoes.... Someone today stood and gave a 100% pure testimony of Christ. It was wonderful. I really enjoyed it. Maybe someday, all who stand on Fast & Testimony meeting will give that, a testimony! Thankimony and travel logs are the worst.

A person today talked about getting a free bed and someone who only had 1 pair of shoes….

Someone today stood and gave a 100% pure testimony of Christ. It was wonderful. I really enjoyed it. Maybe someday, all who stand on Fast & Testimony meeting will give that, a testimony!

]]> By: Jason http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40481 Jason Mon, 05 Nov 2007 03:38:41 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40481 I had a similar thought while listening in my meeting today actually, though the thought only struck me when a brother got up towards the end and actually bore a 100% non-thankimony. I'm sure that graph would look pretty similar for my ward as well, I'll have to keep track the next couple months, could be fun to see if I'm just being overly sensitive or if I am right in thinking the majority fall into the category of "primarily thankimony" (though I think I'll need a 3rd category: overly drawn-out stories that only vaguely illustrate a point). I had a similar thought while listening in my meeting today actually, though the thought only struck me when a brother got up towards the end and actually bore a 100% non-thankimony. I’m sure that graph would look pretty similar for my ward as well, I’ll have to keep track the next couple months, could be fun to see if I’m just being overly sensitive or if I am right in thinking the majority fall into the category of “primarily thankimony” (though I think I’ll need a 3rd category: overly drawn-out stories that only vaguely illustrate a point).

]]> By: Mike the Horebite http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40472 Mike the Horebite Mon, 05 Nov 2007 02:19:09 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40472 I thought that might have been it. Thanks for restoring my faith. :) I thought that might have been it. Thanks for restoring my faith. :)

]]> By: Connor http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40470 Connor Mon, 05 Nov 2007 01:46:54 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40470 <em>I notice that the first testimony was all Thankimony. Isn’t that usually a member of the bishopric?</em> Actually, I excluded the Bishop's counselor, because I didn't think to start the counting until after he ended. Thanks for catching me on that - I should have mentioned it above. For what it's worth, the first person noted here was the ward chorister. :) I notice that the first testimony was all Thankimony. Isn’t that usually a member of the bishopric?

Actually, I excluded the Bishop’s counselor, because I didn’t think to start the counting until after he ended. Thanks for catching me on that – I should have mentioned it above.

For what it’s worth, the first person noted here was the ward chorister. :)

]]> By: Mike the Horebite http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40468 Mike the Horebite Mon, 05 Nov 2007 01:39:04 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40468 I notice that the first testimony was all Thankimony. Isn't that usually a member of the bishopric? I notice that the first testimony was all Thankimony. Isn’t that usually a member of the bishopric?

]]> By: dstoker http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40421 dstoker Sun, 04 Nov 2007 20:15:29 +0000 http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/thankimony-or-testimony#comment-40421 I had a bishop who was frustrated by this phenomenon and instituted a two (or three I can't remember specifically) minute rule for testimonies. He had a deacon on the front row with a stop watch and cards that said 1 minute and 30 seconds on them which he would raise at the appropriate time. If the person went over the three minutes the deacon would stand up until the person wrapped it up. Of course there was murmuring and grumbling at first but it was interesting to see how quickly the shorter testimonies began to focus on expressions of pure testimony and how much more inspiring testimony meetings were. My understanding is that after the bishop was released the ward asked that the next bishop continue the policy. I had a bishop who was frustrated by this phenomenon and instituted a two (or three I can’t remember specifically) minute rule for testimonies. He had a deacon on the front row with a stop watch and cards that said 1 minute and 30 seconds on them which he would raise at the appropriate time. If the person went over the three minutes the deacon would stand up until the person wrapped it up. Of course there was murmuring and grumbling at first but it was interesting to see how quickly the shorter testimonies began to focus on expressions of pure testimony and how much more inspiring testimony meetings were. My understanding is that after the bishop was released the ward asked that the next bishop continue the policy.

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