My name is an inside joke with one of my friends. I was brainstorming for potential e-mail addresses and it’s the first thing that he said. I think that he was sort of surprised that I went with it. In retrospect, it sort of conjures images of congealing substances and medical conditions, though it’s become part of my identity so I’ll have to take the bad with the good, I suppose.

By the way, did you know that Carissa (a very nice name as well) also refers to a genus of shrubs? I just found that out.

God, however, is a universal truth. Basing what’s right or wrong on His word is different than basing it on culture, society, or personal opinion.

Since God is unprovable, and must be believed in, how is basing your morality in his”word” different that basing your morality in society or personal opinion (which also must be believed in)?

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.

You are arguing that God gets to decide what is moral, other people argue that man gets to decide what is moral. No matter who is making the decision, the fact remains that which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. I always thought that was the definition of moral relativism. Did I misunderstand it?

As you relate this historical “flip-flopping”, as it were, to moral aboslutism, I think it should be noted that my definition of morality is akin to Joseph Smith’s:

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, ‘Thou shalt not kill’; at another time He said, ‘Thou shalt utterly destroy.’ This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. (Joseph Smith, via Quoty)

Morality is a standard defined not by man, but by God. He can change the rules whenever he wants and for whatever reason. What is important is that we know the standard we have been commanded to follow, and then follow it.

Moral relativism, then, is the failure to apply that standard to ourselves and to others. Claiming that person A can do X if he thinks it is okay for him (and fits in with his personal relationship with God) subverts any divine standard and replaces it with personal preference and justification.

(I’d finish this thought, but I have to run out the door this second – more later.)

I guess what I would like to see in this case, is for us to stop worrying about “what kirby did”, and by replying to this post, I’m not helping.

Do you see a contradiction in those sentences? I don’t. The first is about the person, the other is about his actions. The first is about “Kirby” and the other is about “what he did.” If we can’t make that distinction, we are helpless when it comes to evaluating which actions are good and which are not.

How is this much different than moral relativism? If morality changes based upon the will of God, is this not the same as saying good and evil are not absolute?

Brandon, to this I would say that God occasionally changes practices- sometimes for reasons we do not understand, but that in no way means that the principles behind them fluctuate. And it certainly does not mean good and evil don’t exist and cannot be identified or defined. There are most definitely absolute truths we can use to guide us.

As far as people who could benefit from coming to church not feeling welcome… I believe in many cases you are right and this is a terrible shame. We can all do better at having more charity and trying to see people as God sees them- regardless of their sins or shortcomings. I pray I can be better at doing this; there is certainly a need for it. At the same time, I also pray that I can clearly discern right from wrong and that it never becomes blurry.

“Some us of just think that what he did was selling his integrity and good name for money.”

Okay.

I think most of us have made it clear that we dont judge Kirby on a personal level. We all admire his talent and think he is a really great person. I for one would love to hang out with Kirby and shoot the breeze or whatever. Some us of just think that what he did was selling his integrity and good name for money. I have done this same thing in the past as have all of us at some point. We have learned from our own sorry experience that selling out does not bring the lords blessings. I am sure Bro. Kirby at some point will learn this lesson too. In the meantime we are all his friends and hope he has success and happiness.

I have noticed that there are alot of LDS in the limelight these days. This is the blessing of the lord and a way for him to bring the church out of obscurity. Those in the limelight will be tested to see if they will maintain their integrity or sell it for money. The ones who sellout will bring shame upon themeselves and upon Christ and His church. Those who stick with the standards will be guide to those seeking the truth and will play the part the Lord intended for them, to be light to the world.

Connor, my brother tells me I have a problem with moral relativism, but frankly I am not so sure there exists a moral absolute. The church has taught me that any commandment can be changed by God. Polygamy was considered wrong when the church began, then God revealed that polygamy was good, and then later he revealed that the practice of polygamy violated his will (also consider Jacob in BOM). That doesn’t seem to be an absolute. Killing is considered one of the greatest sins, unless God commands you otherwise, as he did with Nephi. How is this much different than moral relativism? If morality changes based upon the will of God, is this not the same as saying good and evil are not absolute? The morality of polygamy and murder are relative to the revealed will of God at any given time.

As far as holding others to a moral standard, I think I will leave that to those more qualified than myself. Frankly, I am not interested in having Baptists, Buddhists, Muslims or Mormons hold me to their interpretation of moral standards. I would rather make that choice (regarding morality) for myself and ask others to concern themselves with their own salvation.

While I understand the zeal of those on this thread that want to hold every Mormon to their standard of worthiness, I agree with # 59

We in the church, especially Utah, make life so difficult for others by being so judgmental. We should care for each other and look after each other, and leave the judging to those who have the authority to do so.

How often do you see openly sinning people in Mormon churches (you know, the kind of people who really need God in their lives)? Not very often, as far as I can tell. I believe it is because they do not feel welcome. This attitude of “it is our duty to judge everyone else’s actions (righteously)” does not create a very inviting atmosphere. Honestly, I would rather worship with a bunch of beer drinking smokers who are sincelerly seeking after God than a whole army of “righteous” men looking down their noses at anyone who doesn’t conform to their interpretation of God’s will.

Back to the issue of acting in a beer commercial, maybe Kirby doesn’t believe that non-Mormons drinking beer is a sin (which I believe). If so, he has not acted contrary to his beliefs. Now, if you think it is a sin for non-Mormons to drink, than you shouldn’t act in a beer commercial. I don’t know if Kirby is right or wrong and I don’t think any of you do either. Unless, anyone has had a revelation they would like to share with the rest of us?

What do you folks think i should do?

PS: I also got a part in a g rated movie where I have to be shown drinking a coke. Man, that is really going to Irk the lds crowd! lol

Yes.

I also think that there is a difference between judging and making judgements of things or people as they relate to ourselves.

Sometimes people feel that it is wrong to judge others in any way. While it is true that we should not condemn others or judge them unrighteously, we will need to make judgments of ideas, situations, and people throughout our lives.

Our righteous judgments about others can provide needed guidance for them and, in some cases, protection for us and our families. We should approach any such judgment with care and compassion. As much as we can, we should judge people’s situations rather than judging the people themselves. Whenever possible, we should refrain from making judgments until we have an adequate knowledge of the facts. And we should always be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, who can guide our decisions.

I think that sums it up pretty good.

The big difference is just what you said Carissa- it is done out of love, not condemnation.

I think people get too carried away with their righteous judgment that they forget what righteous judgment is supposed to be.

I see missionary work as helping others to know the path that leads back to God—what covenants we must make, what commandments we must follow, etc. If an investigator says “I have a good relationship with God, and He doesn’t mind that I fornicate”, then we can respect that, but we wouldn’t be able to baptize them, nor would we agree with them…

I do believe that our relationship with God can exceed mere formalities of whether or not we’re obeying His will and following His commandments, but I think that those things relate to personal circumstances and experiences, not necessarily the application of certain moral issues (since moral issues apply to all of God’s children).

:)

I think that our relationship with God is mostly defined by our obedience to His commandments. We can claim to love Him and be His friend, but unless we do His will, we have no formal relationship. Covenants (part of the obedience process) are what create that relationship, allowing us to come closer to Him.

Thus, we might easily say that if person A commits action X (X being against God’s commandment), we can say with surety that person A should not commit action X (regardless of A’s claims to having a personal relationship with God that we should consider).