And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward. (Alma 63:5)
That chapter describes the people who followed suit, departing in droves. Check this forum discussion for ideas on why there is a prominent belief in the LDS culture that the polynesians are descendants of Hagoth’s people.
You can find more about this book (and following books by descendants of Hagoth, supposedly) at mentinah.com. Here is the description of the Book of Hagoth:
Hagoth built ships and departed from the Land Southward with his family and twelve Nephite and twelve Ammonite families. They traveled north along the Pacific coastline to the mouth of the Colorado River, up the Colorado River to the area now known as Four Corners where they settled for a time. They became known as the Nemenhah people. They left the Four Corners area and established two new settlements – one on the plains area and the other further north in the mountains where they remained undefiled by the Gadiantonem Robbers.
Now, this “Book of Hagoth” (and the whole Mentinah Archives bit) strikes me as a bit odd. At the least, I have these questions I’d like answered.
- The website says that the Chruch was contact in ’57, so they’re apparently aware (or were at one time aware) of this stuff. Has there been any comment by a GA or church official?
- Why is this the first that anybody has really heard of this?
- The description for the Book of Hagoth makes specific reference to the Colorado River and the Four Corners area. These are modern names for these locations. I’m surprised that with all the speculation regarding BoM locations, that these Mentinah people are apparently able to pinpoint, with amazing accuracy, the modern-day locations of ancient settings…
- When is the full english translation due out?
- If this is true scripture, why isn’t it going through normal church channels, rather than a third-party, non-church-authorized translation and publication?
- The website reports interaction w/ Brigham Young. Is there anything in Pres. Young’s journals or notes that indicate this ever taking place?
The skeptic in me chalks this all up to being a false hoax. Whether it is intentionally meant to deceive or not, I’m not sure. However, the moderate, open-minded part of me (which I sometimes let out of its cage) wants to ponder this a bit, and research a tad more.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are not canonized scripture, yet LDS scholars have noted several things of worth contained therein. The main difference is that a plethora of scholars have analyzed the actual documents of the Dead Sea Scrolls to determine their legitimacy and antiquity. As I understand it, no such thing has happened with the “plates of various metals and alloys of metals, processed animal hides and paper velum” used in the Mentinah Archives.
Hogwash? Or an apocryphal record worth investigating? I’m not sure how I feel about all this…
23 comments so far. Care to chime in?
#1 A voice from Texas | March 15th, 2007 9:58 PM
First of all, allow me to commend you on your indesission thus far. (the spelling wont get any better so just bear with me) I was brousing the net when I came across your entry and felt prompted to throw in my 2 cents. I am LDS and have studied both the mentinah records along with several other ancient publications.
Within your questions, I observe an opportunity. I propose that you find out for yourself. We know we live in a time where the earth will open up and reveal her treasures. Remember that Joseph didn’t belong to “the church” either. You know up front that these translators claim no right of prophecy, in fact they state clearly that they are for their people first, as a geneology. As you read, use the tools given you by every sunday of worship, and you will notice the authors insist on the same standards.
Conquer the fear with you (it’s in each of us) reguarding anything new and different. Test the PRINCIPALS you find there. Yes, the translation is rough. Yes, they speak openly of that which mormons only whisper. But remember, God inspires all who seek his wisdom, not just those belonging to established religious groups.
Most of all. keep asking questions. Search, ponder and pray isn’t just for the scriptures! I’ve been around long enough to realize that propaganda is everywhere and in everything, wether we intend it to be or not. This is your opportunity to use your curiosity to strengthen your relationship with the Holy Spirit when it comes to questions of diccernment.
In my studies I have found the hand of our creator in places I would have never imagined, but only because I was looking. It is my belief that a loving Father doesn’t just wait for us to make a request before He acts. Unable to converse with us face to face He causes the flowers to brighten gloomy days, the breeze to cool us, friends to comfort us and gives us questions so that we will turn to Him.
For me personally, I felt as though the principals revealed in these records has only served to enhance my understanding and deepen my capacity to serve the mission to wich I was born (returning to my heavenly parents).
Learn to glean truth from every source and wisdom beyond your wildest dreams will unfold for you. We can ask, and He can give but nothing happens if we don’t recieve.
Good luck on your quest!
#2 Daniel | January 29th, 2008 10:00 PM
A recent study strongly suggests that Pacific Islanders are descended from Asians, not Hebrews.
This would appear to falsify the Polynesian/Hagoth link, if indeed there was a person named Hagoth, and if he was Hebrew.
Then again, Native Americans don’t come up Hebrew on DNA tests either. Make of that what you will.
#3 Daniel | January 29th, 2008 10:02 PM
Clarification: I only mention this because many Pacific Islanders think they’re descendants of Hagoth.
#4 John | February 16th, 2008 4:47 PM
Although any of Hagoth’s other boats may have sailed to the South Pacific, my research suggests that Hagoth himself sailed in the opposite direction, northwards, into an entirely different ocean. Thoughts?
#5 Kelly W. | August 12th, 2008 11:05 AM
Only recently was I made aware of these “writings.” I am a little skeptical, but I find the prospect extremely interesting. I downloaded them, and last night I read the book of Hagoth. This is extremely interesting reading.
Thought one is that since these writings have been around since Brigham Young’s time, and even more so since 1957 (or so it is claimed) they must not be very controversial or damaging to the Church or else we would have heard more about them. But then even the Apocrypha is not heard about very often.
Thought two is that even IF these writings are fictional, they could be read much like a series in the vein of The Work And The Glory series, based in fact but in the end are fiction.
If these writings are fictional, at least the Book of Hagoth is extremely well written, and no author has stood up to take credit for that! If they are fictional, the author had an extremely good knowledge of the Book of Mormon.
I look forward to reading more of these writings. Maybe I can learn something, or maybe they just make for safe entertainment, since the Church apparently isn’t speaking out against them, nor is anyone else as far as I know.
#6 Zac | September 1st, 2008 2:42 AM
I will assume that the people in this conversation are mormon, and with that assumption i would like to remind you of a gift given you when you were baptized called the holy ghost. Why have you forgotten about that and instead judging before even reading these records, as some do with the book of mormon? We know the only source of truth comes through the spirit of confermation. So i would like to encourage each of you to pray about this and ask with sincere intent if it’s true. Also, go and read a talk by Dallin H. Oaks, one of our twelve apostles. Called “All Men Everwhere” in may 2006.
with much love,
#7 Kelly W. | September 1st, 2008 6:16 AM
I am currently teaching SS, and have received much insight into the current Gospel Doctrine lessons by reading the records of the Mentinah. The more I read, the more I am convinced they could be authentic.
I have, with jealousy, read other people’s accounts of how they stumbled onto the Book of Mormon, and then started reading it and not being able to put it down because of the Spirit they felt. I did not have that experience because I was raised in the Church and reading the B of M was hard as a youngster.
But, in continuing to read the records of the Mentinah, I find I can’t put it down. My Spirit seems to be drawn to it.
Still, I am hedged up slightly by the fact the Church knows about these records, yet never mentions them.
In my Gospel Doctrine SS lesson yesterday, the material was from Helaman chapters 1 through 5. In chapter 3, Mormon tells us that there were literally tens of thousands of people who departed into the Land Northward. (see also Alma chapter 63) I read these verses to the class, and mentioned in passing that I had been reading about these records of the Nephites and Ammonites who migrated to the Land Northward, and how fascinating these accounts are. There was not one single hand or comment to my remark.
#8 Dumaori | September 17th, 2008 7:57 PM
Kia Ora from Aotearoa (New Zealand), I am Maori and found the Mentinah records interesting to read. To add my two pence worth, Maori (Not all) don’t specifacally say they descend from Hagoth, but from those who travelled in his ships. Nephites, Lamanites and whatever other group hopped on board. Whether these archives are true or not is up to the beholder, however, it certainly fills the gaps missing in the book of mormon eg: Samuel the Prophet, Nephi the wanderer, the Harlot etc etc.. Now scholars say we Maori come from Taiwan, Remnants of the Jaredites may also have mingled with the other “ites”, contrary to Ether, not all Jaredites were killed, only the millions who were present. So an asian DNA in Maori is plausible giving we may even have the Jaredite Mix in us …. Anywayze, if you havn’t been to polynesia, come over and see for yourselves whether we could possibly have come from the South America’s, this may clear or confuse your thinking regarding the Book of Hagoth & co.
#9 Leaf Jimenez | October 23rd, 2008 5:13 AM
Now I am an Indian person and I believe in most parts of the Archives. And I also believe in the Book Of Mormon. I have always had a special place in my heart for white people. There has always been a special love for them in my heart. So when I first read the Book Of Mormon in my youth that feeling became even stronger. And I viewed my white brethren with much compassion and yearning to be with them. Mainly those with a restoration back ground. But there has always been a problem with the Church Institution for me. Such as the foundation of Zion. This is something that the whole world still awaits. Why has the restoration failed
the Indian people? Many people believe that when Indian people become like Mormons. Then Zion will come. I for one as an Indian person don’t see Zion established by the church. One clear example is in Revelations. “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it”. This clearly states that Zion has no building that is used for worship. Another example is “Destroy this
sanctuary, and in three days I will raise it up”. Clearly the Lord was speaking of his body. His body is the temple. Not some expensive building. My people have worshiped in this manner for hundreds of years here in the North Americas. We did not gather in a building. We sat around a sacred fire and the spirit led us wether to teach, or sing, etc., To me this sounds like the same manner in which Enoch probably taught and worshiped in Zion of old. That is why Zion can’t be established by the Church Institution. Can Restoration officials renounce Babylon and live like tradional Indian people? A closeness to the earth is the ultimate
way to truly leave Babylon behind. And how could you expect Indians to become like Mormon people when they resemble so much in their way of living, the manners of Babylon. Something about Indians you should
know is. That we don’t feel connnected to Babylon. I don’t post an American flag on my property because for me it is a symbol of evil, racism, hatred, and foreign values. If the Ku Klux Klan one day made it official for Indians to join their orginization do you think we would all suddenly post a KKK banner in our front lawn. Or on an Indian
Reservation. This is the same feeling I have when I see an American flag. And my beloved brethren in the Restoration adore these things. You see how difficult it would be to convert Indians to the church if that is what
we feel. Indian people are ready to leave Babylon. And the Book Of Mormon has the tools to make this happen. And now with the Archives. These things will be brought into the open by Indian people. You know in the early chuch history. The people of the church were commanded by God to give of their belongings to the Indian people. And the church changed it from Indians to the Saints. Despite many other areas where we were crossed out of the Doctrine and Covenants I still love the people of the restoration with all my heart. I am going to be 37 years old soon and I am preparing to leave Babylon and live a traditional Indian life with the Book of Mormon as the foundation of my religion. You sound like young people and I know that you are a brave and a strong people. And so I am anxious to hear your response and please forgive me if any of my words offend.
#10 zac | March 9th, 2009 9:20 PM
i am young and am preparing to serve a mission for the lds church and am not offended at all with what you’ve said. i agree completely and entirely with your words, yes i am white and sometimes i wish i wasn’t. do not let the words of men shake what you know to be true and feel. some are not ready for this great work. you need the milk before the meat. know that you are not alone in your tribulations and frustrations, you will know exactly how the early saints felt with the book of mormon. stay close to the spirit, endure to the end, and as far as online arguments and blogs. do not get caught up and frustrated, some are not ready. you can only try and help with understanding
#11 Leaf Jimenez | March 10th, 2009 2:34 AM
In the inspired version you will find-that a tree is no different from a person-it has a living soul. It also says the same thing about animals. It is also said that Christ is in all things-he is in the light of the sun etc., The Sealed Portion was opened up to the ancestors of the Indians as commanded by Christ. My mother has always said the wind is a member of our family. It is alive and no different from a person. The wind also worships with us and is a part of our church. Now if you utilize the Inspired Version and pray if Christ is in the wind? You might be surprised of the answer. For me yes, he is in the wind, in the trees, the leaves, the grass, hills, the river, the mountains etc., – if these beliefs are a way of life for my people for many years. What exactly did the Sealed Portion contain? “Some” of these beliefs are a remnant of what was contained in the Sealed Portion. What would have happened if the early church institution added onto what the Indians already had? Instead of destroy what we had received. The definition of the true church in the Book of Mormon is a very Indian way of worship. “Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day:” This says everyone who hears the spirit (his voice) is a member of his church. Thats all you need to be a member of the Church of God. And so here is the very reason why Indian people cannot ever join the Church Institution. This would delay Zion. But I am with about 20 other Indian persons who are leaving Babylon soon. With the Book of Mormon as our foundation. The Indian people are suffering. I work with them. I am one of them. I have never indulged in alcohol or drugs. But I can feel Christ grieving over them. And the Book of Mormon is going to bring the downfall of Babylon. That is why I must prepare them to no longer depend on money, government, store bought food and clothes, electricity, homes made of artificial material. Because we are told all these things will be useless when the Arm of the Lord is revealed. Who is in all things, who is in the wind, the lightning, the fire. And so the Lord commanded the church to take the book to the Indian people and it was set aside and replaced with something else. What if I were to tell you that a place has been prepared already by the gentiles for the Indian people to establish Zion. And it was a lake that called out to me and I found the place. Incredibly the people who reside on this large piece of land have been waiting for me to arrive and bring as many tribes as possible. (I wasn’t even born yet) This is funny, they had a vision of a man and someone sketched him as best they could from that vision. And that person resembles me. I am not the person though. This vision was of an ancient man. And so the only government I follow is not the one that is under the U.S. flag. But it is the government of Christ that governs a tree. That governs the river to flow for the sun to shine. Albert Einstein could never discover what it was that makes a tree grow. Can anyone tell me what gives a tree power to grow?
#12 horatio | March 18th, 2009 7:17 PM
Good ideas and insight but not quite the same as a person, trees, wind, animals etc. have no moral agency. A little more explanation may be needed to back up your assumption that Indians living the gospel in the church institution as established by Christ would delay the establishment of Zion.
#13 Leaf Jimenez | March 18th, 2009 9:44 PM
It is true that a rock does not have agency as well as all the other elements. This is taught in our community. “A little more explanation may be needed to back up your assumption that Indians living the gospel in the church institution as established by Christ would delay the establishment of Zion.” This is not what I said. What I am saying is. To delay Zion and to sustain Babylon (money, government etc.,) You would have to exlude Indians from the Church Institution. Or keep the role of the Indians in the restoration hidden from them. Now as I mentioned I am an Indian. And I face much criticism from local church officials, police, and government officials because I promote Zion. They usually attack my traditional views. “How can a rock be alive?” Those types of comments. And they think up of all kinds of non sequiturs. To avoid the facts I present. Now if you have not guessed yet. I wait for the fall of Babylon with much excitement. I have no love for this foreign country, this extension of Europe that is called the United States of which I was born into. But I have a love for the land. Now I love the Book of Mormon. It is from this book that I gained much wisdom. About the true definition of the Church etc., I cannot be converted to Mormonism. I can’t join the Church Institution. Now if that is how an Indian feels. How could we be converted to the Church Institution? “the church institution as established by Christ”. If you researched the writings of Jack Revell’s The 1835 Revisions of the Doctrine and Covenants. You would see that the Church established by Christ was for whatever reason altered to what it has become today. It plainly states the Church Christ established did not last very long before “officials” were added to the Church. This is where I found places where the word Lamanite was replaced with Saints and so forth as I mentioned above. And the commandment to take the gospel to the Indians was moved aside. Man it truly pains me to say these things because I truly love you all. My goal is to not destroy what you have received but to just add on.
#14 junior | November 3rd, 2011 1:08 AM
Iam a Pacific Islander whom partly descended from asia. Therefore this message make it interesting to me. Through later revelation upon the latter day prophets they stated that polynesian people are descended from Hagoth and his people. To my understanding the Lord stated that ‘whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same’. Therefore the prophets speak plainly of what I can say one of the simple truths being restated . May you know that prophets do receive revelation from our ETERNAL FATHER in Heaven. They clarify our misinterpretation of gospel subjects.
#15 Rusty | January 18th, 2012 11:04 AM
The comment about the fellow saying he thought that the record of Hagoth one thing is very apparent he has not read anything but “maybe” excerpts and/or other people’s comments who have not read the record. “IF” he has read it it was read with the intent to find fault. We know that Joseph Smith pin pointed where Manti was why could not the people of Nemenhah pin point any locations? Amazing the ignorance of people who like so many criticize the Book of Mormon having not read it but excerpts and others comments. This person is definitely a blind follower who wants to be spoon fed. Brigham Young said we claim all truth even if it’s found in hell. Meaning the Church does not have a cornerstoon on all truths. Does not the B of M say that the Lord remembers one nation like unto another? Familiarize your self Conner with the scriptures in D&C 6: 27-28. I’ll quote verse 27: “And now I command you , that if you have good desires–a desire to lay up treasures for yourself in heaven–then shall you assist in bringing to light, with your gift, those parts of my scriptures which have been hidden because of iniquity.” Oliver Cowdery failed in getting this gift or in using it but that does negate the fact there were other scriptures to be translated. As far as BY not mentioning it in his Journal that the they came to him to have this record translated isn’t proof that it didn’t happen. BY did not mention in journals originally his feelings about the Martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum. It was inserted much later after the fact. So before you get on that wagon that the prophets are not infallible and are not gods and are not perfect, open your eyes that you may see, your ears that you may hear the word of God through and by the power and gift of the Holy Ghost.
#16 Rusty | January 18th, 2012 11:09 AM
I meant to say instead of treating prophets as gods….they’re not. My Salvation is upon Jesus Christ our Lord not on the arm of flesh. Our canonized scriptures are our standard our measuring rod if you will. Have you applied these standardized works to the record of the Nemenhah People? I already know the answer you have not studied the canonized scriptures nor this work. Your comments bespeak this truth.
#17 Jim | January 18th, 2012 4:48 PM
Hagoth? interesing.However it sounds more nordic to me, like the comic strip ‘Hagar the horrible’. But then again, hagar is supposed to be the start of the arab people. Can anyone tell me if that is a reasonable name for someone from the pacific islands?
#18 Thomas | January 31st, 2012 7:30 AM
I am both Anglo-gentile with pioneer Restored Church heritage and Nemenhah heritage from the children of Lehi, also, I am of much Jewish-Christian heritage by way of Catholicism. My belief in the fulness of the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ is because of the testimonies of the Prophets of the Restoration and its keystone of their religion, “the Book of Mormon.” Yet, I also have been led by my paternal grandfather to follow the leadership that was coming from the Catherman family of the state of Washington, regarding the Sacred Records of the Nemenhah! This was back in the early years when I was still in my adolescence, as the Mentinah Archives was getting to become translated, some of the first drafts were read at times before public gatherings.
My purpose of commenting is in respect to another’s comments about ‘Salvation’ being from Jesus Christ. Within Volume 4, The Record of Mor-Honayah, Chapter 17, one can read which sacred ordinances are a saving grace and which sacred ordinances are not saving grace.
Both the Restored Church and the Nemenhah testify of Jesus Christ and they are technically both necessary.
Doc. & Cov., Sec.67, actually is making preparation of the Restored Church for when the time of the Mentinah Archives comes forth in its gentiles’ translation(English).
Of course, there is more to it which is unfolding at this time during the “Great Calamity.”
The Mentinah Archives was published in December 2004, and I have joined the Nemenhah Band in the early 1990′s decade while attending meetings in Ephraim, Utah.
Praise unto the Spirit.
#19 Markel | August 26th, 2012 8:48 PM
This is the silliest thing I ever heard of. The Colorado river does not empty out into the ocean like the Mississippi river does. I just sort of fans out into a bunch of small rivlets and unnavigable marshes and swamps.
#20 LaLauna Bandmann | September 12th, 2012 3:10 PM
The land was changed during the crucifixion so that is possible if the mouth of the river was changed. Joseph F. Smith told the Polynesians in a conference that they were from Hagoth. I don’t really know what to think about Mentinah, but I like to keep an open mind.
#21 Jeff Hansen | December 24th, 2012 11:06 AM
Hey everyone- I’ve been VERY confused about these writings for many years. I believe they lead a man to do good, and I feel good when I read them. But there is one doctrine that is propagated in book 3 that is in direct opposition to what the LDS Church declares to be Doctrine- and it is that Plural Marriages/Sealings are in effect in the hereafter- book 3 says that Christ comes and declares that Plural Marriages DO NOT endure in the hereafter. How do I make sense of this? Your comments/email would be GREATLY appreciated. Cheers friends
#23 Lalie | April 22nd, 2013 1:09 AM
Having reflected on my comments I wanted to add that the Mentinah has not been translated by the Urim and Thumim yet and even the translators say it is difficult to translate one language to another cannot be wholly done, being about 60-65% accurate. I can’t accept this book as a whole to be anything more than Apocrypha for now because of the answer I received. But reading it is of value. I love the emphasis on constant communication with the Holy Ghost, of seeking a second witness through it in everything, including all our church leaders say, not to find fault but to be clear in our understanding of the Lords will and to understand truth. I appreciate also what Leaf has added and how he sees the wicked tradition of our fathers or society if you will. Being in the world, we as an LDS people at least in the US for the most part are not separated from Babylon and Mentinah has helped me see how much it is in me. It is most difficult to have it stripped away in your heart. It requires help from God to do such a thing. And he will do it to us all before he comes. I also loved how the Nemenhah have a deep abiding love of the earth and honor her. We have much to learn from their humility.
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