Comments on: The Problematic Inward Vessel

By: Connor

Connor — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:28:09 +0000

Last week, President Packer spoke at the Freedom Festival regarding the threats we face today. Here's the money quote:

We know that war can't destroy [the sun, symbolic of America], but if it is destroyed it will be from within. And now we face a danger greater than any of the wars we have faced. To honor the Constitution and to honor freedom is a sacred duty for all of us. (emphasis added)

Boom, baby.

By: Jennie

Jennie — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 05:34:10 +0000

Well, in light of all of that…yes we are supposed to be reading and paying attention to what we study and learn in the Book of Mormon, but I think the biggest lesson is, Are we following the Spirit? Because if we are we are told we will find the truth of ALL THINGS. I’m not a writer and not very good at debating or trying to prove my point, but from experience I know that this is the greatest gift I possess in this mortal existence and it will lead me to all truth. Why is that not taught more?

By: Carborendum

Carborendum — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:11:41 +0000

Smitty,

Thanks for the bit about Gidgiddoni.

By: J. Crawford Smith

J. Crawford Smith — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:21:02 +0000

Marc: an example of how Isaiah brings the Book of Mormon to life. Tonight in our family scripture reading we read 1N22, and I thought about what I’d written you earlier.. I’ll use vs. 17 as an example. "Wherefore, he will preserve the righteous by his power, even if it so be that the fullness of his wrath must come, and the righteous be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies by fire. Wherefore the righteous need not fear; for thus saith the prophet, they shall be saved, even if it so be by fire." If you were to ask my father, a temple sealer, what this verse means he’d tell you that when the bombs and nukes of war explode in the last days, only the Mormon’s will be saved. God will miraculously save just the Mormons all other homes will be burnt. Nice idea, but not exactly what I think Isaiah is telling us. “The Righteous” that God promises “to preserve” are the “Righteous Branch” AKA Lehi’s seed. (See 2N3 2N9:53; 2N10; D&C 86:8-9; Abr 2:11; Romans 11:1-6 etc. with Isa 48 and 49 that Nephi just quoted where Isaiah tells Jacob and Israel they will be preserved, and gathered. Then in the context of 1N22 see verse 12 where Lehi’s seed are promised to be “gathered” again.) “His Power” is a metaphor for the latter day Davidic/Ephriamite Servant. (See D&C 113:3-6; 2N3:23-24; 3N20:43; Isa 49:3-6; which Nephi just quoted. Isa 40:10; 51:9; 52:1; 63:1) Note too in the D&C the reason the Gentiles did not obtain Zion was because they lacked “power,” but that “power” must come before Zion can be established. (D&C 103:15; 109:59; 113:8) “His Wrath,” is the King of Assyria that destroys Babylon. (Isa 9:19; 10:5; 10:25; 13:5, 9, 13; 14:6; 59:18 etc.) “Their enemies” The enemies of God’s righteous branch are the mighty Gentile nation (1N22:7; 3N16:8-16; 3N20:14-20, 27, 35; Isa. 1:24 which has reference back to Isa 1:1-4) “By Fire” another metaphor for the King of Assyria. (Too many to list but in Isaiah the King of Assyria always does the burning of Babylon by fire. 1:7; 5:24 – both directed to latter day “Israel;” Isa. 10:16; 47:14 directed to corporate Babylon.) So lets re-read 1N22:17 with Isaiah’s definitions and metaphors added: Wherefore, he will preserve the righteous (Lehi’s seed specifically the house of Israel in general) by his power (the later-day Davidic/Ephriamite Servant), even if it so be that the fullness of his wrath (the King of Assyria – probably Russia) must come, and the righteous (Lehi’s seed) be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies (the mighty Gentile nation) by fire (which is the King of Assyria). Wherefore the righteous (Lehi’s seed) need not fear; for thus saith the prophet (Isaiah), they (Lehi’s seed) shall be saved, even if it so be by fire (the King of Assyria). i.e when the “Empire to the North” (as Mexican’s call the USA) is destroyed by the King of Assyria in “a day” “suddenly” “an hour” (Rev 18 and Isa 29:5; 30:13; 47:9; 48:3; 51:4) they will be taken “out of captivity,” “gathered together to the lands of their inheritance” (America), “brought out of obscurity and out of darkness.” Lehi’s seed will finally in that day, after having endured all the persecutions of the Gentiles (3N16:8-9) “know that the Lord is their Savior and their Redeemer, the Mighty One of Israel.” (1N22:12)

By: J. Crawford Smith

J. Crawford Smith — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:20:06 +0000

One of the best books I’ve ever read on the last days is by Avraham Giliadi called “The Last Days.” You can find it on amazon for under $10.

When you really want to begin to understand (and I don’t mean this in a demeaning way at all) the Book of Mormon, read Giliadi’s work “The Literary Message of Isaiah.” Without a complete understanding of Isaiah, the Book of Mormon is NOT understandable (from a Last Day’s perspective that is.)

I’ve read the BofM 3 to 5 times a year for 25 years. I’ve searched it by topic, and I can honestly say that until I read Giliadi’s works on Isaiah, I did not understand the Book of Mormon’s Last Days message either to the Gentiles or the Remnant. He’s that good.

WARNING: Once you’ve read Giliadi’s works you’ll NEVER have fun in Sunday School again. ;-)

Seriously, the best thing Giliadi has is an audio called “Analytical Commentary Of Isaiah” Verse by verse comentary on the entire book of Isaiah.

PS: I sped it up by 50% because it dragged on without speeding up the MP3 files.

By: J. Crawford Smith

J. Crawford Smith — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:10:12 +0000

Marc, the book I cite, “The Blessings of Abraham” by E. Douglas Clark is rather good on the first Babylon.

By: Marc

Marc — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 00:42:37 +0000

J. – I am reading the babylon article you wrote. You talk about egypt and babylon being the military and economic powers of thier day and that these nations are really one nation in the latter days (the U.S). I thought it was interesting that our dollar bill has a picture of the great pyramid of Egypt on it. It made me wonder if thier was some sort of link there.

Wasnt the tower of Babel the first attempt in recorded history to set up a world govt’? It seems to me that the Lord confounded thier languages in order to keep them from colluding and creating a world tyranny. With that in mind, isnt the word “Babylon” derived from the word “Babel” It seems that thier is a parallel there and this whole thing is coming full circle.

By: J. Crawford Smith

J. Crawford Smith — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:57:50 +0000

Connor, sending you another link that goes with this topic. Audio by Col Fletcher Prouty who gives first hand account of how the USA brought Nazi Intel Agents out of Germany before the end of the war, so we would have intel on Russia. i.e. the "cold war" started before WWII ended. [Edit: here's the file]

By: J. Crawford Smith

J. Crawford Smith — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:05:57 +0000

Marc…maybe because it was good PR for Rumi..and or he knew the “threat” was over.

By: Marc

Marc — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:07:28 +0000

J. – Thanks for pointing that difference out. I guess if the WH or Cap was hit that would have actually been a favor to the people! LOL…. I saw some photos of Rummy out carrying stretchers on the pentagon lawn right after the attacks. Why is the guy responsible for the nations defense not in a bunker somewhere trying to sort out the attack and making sure defenses where shored up? Very fishy…..

By: J. Crawford Smith

J. Crawford Smith — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:41:34 +0000

One more thing Marc….The Pentagon…yes it was a strategic target IF the plane had hit the same side of the building that it flew in from West to East, instead of spending another 15 min above the most guarded air space on the planet to hit from E to W. The plane that hit the Pentagon if it had come in from W to E as it was when it entered the D.C airspace would have taken out Rumsfield, who by the way refused to leave his office because he is “too Fn old” (his words not mine. See Dick Clarks book on 9/11 for the exact quote.)

So why didn’t the most important military commander next to the Pres follow protocol and leave his office to a secure bunker when he had a least an hour’s notice to do so. “I’m too Fn old to leave” and move to a secure bunker OK,…yah I buy that! NOT! The plane ended up hitting a side of the Pentagon that was under construction and was not full of military personel.

go figure.

By: J. Crawford Smith

J. Crawford Smith — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:35:20 +0000

Marc, not even the white house and capital hill are strategic targets. A strategic target takes out part of our “critical infrastructure.” (Power Grid, Drinking Water, Telecommunications grid, Transportation routes etc.) If the planes in NYC had aimed just a few blocks away at #1 Hudson street they would have taken out all of our international telecommunications lines going toward Europe from Wall Street. That would have killed our markets, not just closed them for a few days. Or if they had hit the Defence Logistics center in Kansas City that would have taken out all DoD logistical capabilities because that is where the DoD’s super computer center is located. Of if they had hit the DoD’s centralized (believe it or not) telecommunication hub in Cincinatti Ohio that would have knocked out allmost all DoD “secure” transporatation lines…Obviously the DoD has telephone lines with civilian carriers, but the majority if not all “secure” trafic goes through Cincinatti.

I could go on…but that is enough.

By: Marc

Marc — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:13:32 +0000

J. – The whitehouse or capitol hill would have been great strategic targets but they werent hit were they? When the war started most of my lds friends were totally in support of it. I reminded them of the example in 3 nephi 18-21 that you cite here. All of them had some rationalization for why it didnt apply. Most just said “well president Hinckley said he was for it, so I am too”.

For those that are paying attention it is so obvious that the war on terror and 911 are contrived, especially when viewed through the lense of the BOM parallels cited here.

By: J. Crawford Smith

J. Crawford Smith — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:43:39 +0000

Marc: Thanks for your comments about the military. I was a Systems Officer, my wife was an Intel Officer. On 9/11 as we watched the second plane hit “live” I said to my wife, “We’ll be lucky if they continue to hit symbolic targets and not strategic ones.” That was my first impulse that “something was wrong.” When you are “David” you make sure the one rock you throw hits “Goliath” in the head and kills him. One shot, one kill is all you’re going to get. Why didn’t the “terrorists” hit a real, vulnerable, strategic target on 9/11 just never sat well with me. But it wasn’t until 2003 when Bush wanted an offensive war against Iraq that I began to change my mind.

3N3:18 Now the chiefest among all the chief captains and the great commander of all the armies of the Nephites was appointed, and his name was aGidgiddoni.
19 Now it was the custom among all the Nephites to appoint for their chief captains, (save it were in their times of wickedness) someone that had the aspirit of revelation and also prophecy; therefore, this Gidgiddoni was a great prophet among them, as also was the chief judge.
20 Now the people said unto Gidgiddoni: Pray unto the Lord, and let us go up upon the mountains and into the wilderness, that we may fall upon the robbers and destroy them in their own lands.
21 But Gidgiddoni saith unto them: The Lord aforbid; for if we should go up against them the Lord would deliver us into their hands;

Even when you’re surrounded by an enemy the Lord does NOT apporve of offensive war.

By: Connor

Connor — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:37:04 +0000

I have modified J. Crawford’s comment to include the link to the paper he referenced.

By: Marc

Marc — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:09:52 +0000

J. Crawford. I would like to read your 80 page paper. Connor has my email. Will you ask him to email it to me? What you are saying here is so timely and you are making so much sense with this. I really want to know more.

I am glad that someone in the military can see things as they are instead of so many that have been mind programmed by the military system.

By: J. Crawford Smith

J. Crawford Smith — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:22:15 +0000

Nephite Traitors in America and our “Enemy” Russia. Carbonendum: I’m guessing still you want to see more evidence that Russia plays the role of modern day “Lamanites.” Four books and some audio I’d highly recommend. 1. Skousen’s “The Nake Capitalist” not Communist, but instead “Capitalist.” On the first few pages he speaks of interviewing the ex Communist Party leader in America. Dr. Dobb’s, if I recall was her name. And during the interview she tells Skousen that she had orders that if she ever could not contact the Kremlin she was to contact some Wall Street folks and whatever they said was a go. And these Wall Street folks were some of the world greatest “Capitalist.” 2. “None Dare Call it Conspiracy.” Details how the Fabian Socialists (AKA the “Robber Barons” of the last 1880’s – 1930’s) started organizations like the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), Trilateral Commission (TC), and the Federal Reserve. They continue to be your Gadiantons. These men funded the Russians. 3. Read Antony Sutton’s “The Best Enemy Money Can Buy.” He documents how the Robber Barron’s have financed Russia from day one. 4. The “Report from Iron Mountain.” You can pick up my Executive Summary of the report at this link. 5. Audio by Col Fletcher Proudy. Prouty.org Col Prouty was the Air Force / Pentagon representative with the CIA for about a decade in the late 50’s early 60’s. His story about the U2 that was “shot down” is rather interesting. But I’d recommend listening to his entire library since it all deals with his first hand experience with the modern Gadiantons. You can download the video here. Those which control industry (the Gadiantons) also control our “enemy” so they can continue to sell arms. The Military Industrial Complex as President Dwight Eisenhower called it: "This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience ... In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic process." -- President Dwight Eisenhower, farewell speech to the nation, January 17, 1961 "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron." -- Dwight Eisenhower, April 16, 1953 "I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days’ governments had better get out of the way and let them have it." -- Dwight D. Eisenhower "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." -- Dwight D. Eisenhower in a letter to his brother Edgar, November 8, 1954

By: J. Crawford Smith

J. Crawford Smith — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:11:23 +0000

Yes Carborendum, I think the “tool’ matters immensely. But I’m not sure the BofM gives as clear a description as Isaiah. Nor do I believe the “Lamanites” represent “the tool” as well as Isaiah’s “Assyria” or John’s “The Beast.” The reason isn’t that the BofM authors did not know who “the tool” would be, but instead because, as Nephi, Alma, Mormon and Moroni all tell us: I was about to explain to you how the Gentiles get destroyed and the Remnant is saved, but I was forbidden…But hey, read Isaiah, he was not forbidden. They have all been prohibited from saying what they’ve seen happens to the Gentiles.

Re-read 1N12-22 in one sitting. I call it the sandwich. Nephi gives a good chronology of last days events..then stops and says…oops not allowed to day any more. BUT then he give us 15 – 21 which all speak of an exodus out of Babylon and trek lead by the latter-day “Servant” (Isa 49) back to Zion. Then Nephi gives us another chronology of events, 1N22. I think Nephi told us through types what will happen in the last days that he was not allowed to say specifically.

I’ve written an 80 page paper on Babylon the Great, and her destruction at the hands of the Assyrians, where I postulate who “the tool” is. I sent a PDF of the paper to Connor. If he wants to send it to you I’m fine with that. I don’t know how to post something like that on this blog. [EDIT: Here is the paper.]
My guess.
Babylon’s:
John’s “Babylon the Great” is the USA. (Rev 17, 18)
Isaiah’s “Egypt” is the USA.
Nephi’s “Great and Abominable Church” is who he says it is, the mighty Gentile nation, USA. (1N13-15, 22)
Christ’s “Gentiles” that come upon the face of “this land…” are also the USA (3N16, 20, 21, 22)

Who does the destruction of Babylon the Great, Egypt, the Gentiles?

John’s “The Beast,” I believe is Russia and 10 kings that align with her. (Rev 13, 14, 17) Who those other 10 nations are I have no clue, but China, and the Middle East states come to mind.
Isaiah “Assyria,” Russia (Isa 10) To understand Isaiah one needs to understand the metaphors used by Isaiah which represent different players. I won’t go into it here, but “hand, sword, wrath, anger,” etc. are some of the more frequently used metaphors used by Isaiah, and copied by many other prophets to include John and Nephi. (See Isa. 10:5 for a simple example of how Isaiah ties words together.)

Anger Isa 5:25-26; 9:12,17,21; 10:4-5,24-25; 13:9,13; 12:1; 60:10; 63:6 God’s anger is kindled
Axe Isa 10:15
Darkness People choose darkness
Death
Flood Isa 8:6-7
Fury
Indignation
Rage BofI Intro Isa 63:6; 66:14
Razor 7:20; 9:15-16
River Isa 7:20; 8:7; 11:15
Saw
Sea Isa 5:30; 11:15
Vengeance Isa 10:6
Wrath Isa 10:5,24-25; 13:5,9,13; His wrath is poured out
Yoke Isa 9:4; 10:26-27; 47:6
Ensign Isa 5:25-26; 13:2
Fire They are burnt by the fire
Hand (left hand – of destruction) pg 102 Isa 5:25; 9:12,17,21; 10:4-5; 13:2; 47:6; His hand is lifted up
Lips
Mouth
Rod Isa 9:4; 10:5,15,24
Scourge/Whip
Staff Isa 9:4; 10:5,15,24
Sword They are slain by the sword
Tongue dries up the tongue – Isa 11:15
Their tongue utters lies
Voice

By: Marc

Marc — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:25:49 +0000

I find it amazing that a 20 something from Poway can figure this out but most 60 somethings will be glad to tell you you are up in the night with your analysis. What will it take to awake this people?

By: Carborendum

Carborendum — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:49:11 +0000

Smith,

Comment #19 — Thank you. I’ll look into it.
Comment #20 — Completely unnecessary. I’m already aware. The reason I asked the question is that YOU seemed to be saying certain things about the Lamanites. Apparently you weren’t.
Comment #21 — You give the description that I already knew, but you don’t really answer the queston. Maybe your answer is “it doesn’t matter”.

I think it would matter who the “tool” is so that we can see who’s pulling the strings. Then we can be better informed.

I’m just sayin’.