You’re giving up the entire internet?! :)

My 30+ year relationship with the LDS Church is now over. Even though I always had LDS friends, and I did compartmentalize many disturbing historical facts and beliefs, you helped me realize just how dangerous your church can be.

Compartmentalization is never a good thing. If there were things that were issues for you before, your “realization” in discussing these things with me was due to these previous issues, not any light bulb moment you may have had with what you read here.

I’m sorry you consider the Church dangerous. Such is truly not the case. Indeed, standing on a firm moral ground and advocating purity and righteousness is the responsibility and position of the true Church of Christ. Waivering morals and capitulating to society’s latest trend is the position of all other Churches who “accept” people so that their membership doesn’t end up in a schism.

You are what we have been advocating against.

As I’ve said elsewhere repeatedly, the War in Heaven is continuing today. One must find out for one’s self which side is the true one to be on. Indeed, that is the very purpose of our existence here, and once we find the true and correct side, we must staunchly defend and fight for that cause. I’m sorry that you and I have found ourselves on opposing sides.

You have exactly the self-righteous attitudes that harmed my child and allowed Matthew Shephard to be murdered. And Matthew’s murderer used his LDS membership as part of his defense. Your view that your God expects you to campaign against gay people is hate filled.

My position is not one of self-righteousness. It is of righteousness in and of itself. May I remind you of my Church’s 13th Article of Faith:

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

We seek after righteousness. We shy away from sin. God doesn’t expect me to campaign against gay people. Far from it, he expects me to campaign against the sin itself: homosexuality… as well as pedophilia, pornography, profanity, thievery, adultery, and all other sins. Such a position does not require nor promote hate. Again, you say that I am filled with hatred, when in fact I am not. Please stop making such accusations.

It’s good you do what your leaders tell you to do. If you didn’t, you’d be excommunicated. Now that’s a church with true American values.

Haha! This comment strikes me as odd. Are you alleging that my position is one of fear of being excommunicated? That I blindly obey my leaders out of fear of retribution, and losing my membership in the kingdom? Let me reiterate the comment made by my mother in comment #36:

Very amusing — you don’t know Connor very well…

You and your church disgust me.

I’m sorry that a firm moral position disgusts you. I understand that this one is of a personal nature for you because of your son’s experience. My brother has illegally smoked marijuana before. I am opposed to such an action. That doesn’t mean I love my brother less, nor does it mean that I should accept marijuana smoking and illegal behavior because he has accepted that lifestyle. I do not love him any less by telling him to his face that what he did was wrong.

God is a loving Father. He doesn’t advocate hatred or cruel punishment. But he is a just God who repudiates sin and calls Prophets to warn the people of their wickedness, call them to repentance, and invite them to obey Christ and be baptized by the proper authority. Such has been the pattern throughout the ages. It is not any different today.

This is the last time I will visit your blog and any other website. My 30+ year relationship with the LDS Church is now over. Eventhough I always had LDS friends, and I did compartmentalize many disturbing historical facts and beliefs, you helped me realize just how dangerous your church can be.

You are what we have been advocating against. You have exactly the self-righteous attitudes that harmed my child and allowed Matthew Shephard to be murdered. And Matthew’s murderer used his LDS membership as part of his defense. Your view that your God expects you to campaign against gay people is hate filled.

It’s good you do what your leaders tell you to do. If you didn’t, you’d be excommunicated. Now that’s a church with true American values.

You and your church disgust me.

But your feelings are unsupported. Mine are not.

You’re basing your view on what someone says. This is very poor evidence because they could easily be wrong. But when your views are based on actual empirical evidence (instead of feelings), it’s a lot more solid.

Fontor, this depends entirely upon who that ‘someone’ is. I will always support and follow God’s Prophet, and when that man says that X is wrong, I will throw in my support and say that X is wrong as well, because it explicitly means that God thinks X is wrong too. So yes, I’m basing my view on what someone says, and that someone is God. Can’t go wrong there.

Hmm.

Yes, I’m having strong feelings that this must be so. And because I have strong feelings, they must be true.

See the problem?

You’re basing your view on what someone says. This is very poor evidence because they could easily be wrong. But when your views are based on actual empirical evidence (instead of feelings), it’s a lot more solid.

So if God says homosexuality is wrong, you’re saying he’s a “closet case”?

Nice how you’re so certain about what God condones, as well. Is it a coincidence that it always syncs up with what you condone? Guess that’s called ‘being in tune’.

No, it’s called “listening to the Prophet”.

Nice how you’re so certain about what God condones, as well. Is it a coincidence that it always syncs up with what you condone? Guess that’s called ‘being in tune’.

Sorry, but this kind of baseless moral certainty just irks me.

Meaning is relative. It may mean nothing to you, but does that mean it can in no way mean anything to myself? Hardly, in my opinion. Regardless of the fact that you see the statement as trite and overused, it is a motto I try to live by as I deal with people whose lifestyles I (and God, for that matter) do not condone.

I’m not so sure. That depends on whether homosexuality is something we’re born with or not, which is quite a hot debate. I know that I could never become homosexual; it’s just not me, but I imagine that most homosexuals feel the same way about becoming heterosexual. It’s certainly different than changing religion, which was a flaw in my metaphor.

“Calling it a cliché is merely an attempt to discredit its validity.”

No, calling it a cliche is calling it what it is. It is a trite, overused expression that means very little, if anything, in practice. We use cliches all the time because they make us feel comfortable, but the truth is that they don’t mean much. We can debate cliches all day. One man’s cliche is another man’s poetry, I guess.

Calling it a cliché is merely an attempt to discredit its validity.

The problem with it is that the “sin” you are hating is ingrained in the people that practice it. Gay people identify themselves as “gay.” It is who they are. Much in the same way that you identify yourself as Mormon.

Can’t a Mormon become a non-Mormon? Can’t a heretosexual become a homosexual, or vice versa? Your label of “identity” is a transitory notion that changes based on circumstances, experiences, and environment.

Their gayness and their self as a person are inseparably connected.

False. That’s like saying that me loving my girlfriend is a notion that I am “inseparably connected” with. So… I can’t dump her this weekend?

Ergo, hating one part–the sin–is akin to hating the person because they identify themselves that way.

Nice try, but no cigar.

If you cannot tolerate the “sin” or the lifestyle that they are living, how will you continue to let that child in your life and at the same time repudiate their actions? You might have to face that one day, Connor, and your no tolerance policy will be severely tested.

That’s a very good question. I have no doubt that my own stance will be tested with time, just as yours and others’ will. I like Joseph Smith’s method.

And why the LDS Church takes this hostile position towards gay people is beyond me.

What in the world is hostile about it? Robert, you’ve accused me of hatred, vilification, and a desire to see gays beaten and killed. I, too, understand the background of your passion in this matter, but the only one with a hostile position during this conversation has been you. The Church neither promotes nor advocates hostility at all. Your unsubstantiated accusations seem to float by with the breeze, without you providing any firm examples of back up your claims.

I don’t really see them involved with other issues, i.e., abortion.

Then I guess you’re not looking hard enough.

Frankly, I don’t think they are mature enough to realize what other consenting adults do behind closed doors does not effect them.

Mature enough? Have you seen who’s at the helm of the Church? How can you get more mature than that?

Let God make those judgments.

He does. And He communicates them to His Prophet.

And there you have it.

:::cough, cough:::

Thank you for understanding why equal rights for gay people is so important to my family. I do not view my son as a “sinner” nor do I think equating his being with that of a car thief appropriate.

And why the LDS Church takes this hostile position towards gay people is beyond me. I don’t really see them involved with other issues, i.e., abortion. Frankly, I don’t think they are mature enough to realize what other consenting adults do behind closed doors does not effect them. In other words, it’s none of their business. Let God make those judgments.

They couldn’t wait to jump on the bandwagon with our president in an amendment to the constituion. You know, Orrin hatch’s quote about the FLDS as being “law abding people” was given good coverage in the San Francisco Chronicle.

And there you have it.

Connor,

“Hate the sin, but love the sinner” is merely a cliche that tries to validate your position. The problem with it is that the “sin” you are hating is ingrained in the people that practice it. Gay people identify themselves as “gay.” It is who they are. Much in the same way that you identify yourself as Mormon. Their gayness and their self as a person are inseparably connected. Ergo, hating one part–the sin–is akin to hating the person because they identify themselves that way.

Your example of the child stealing a car is much different than a child telling you that he/she is gay. If your child came home and told you he/she were gay, how would you react? If you cannot tolerate the “sin” or the lifestyle that they are living, how will you continue to let that child in your life and at the same time repudiate their actions? You might have to face that one day, Connor, and your no tolerance policy will be severely tested.

Robert,

The story of your son touched me. Thanks for sharing. It explains why you are so passionate about this issue. Unfortunately, I think that the fight is just starting for promoting tolerance and acceptance.

Cheers,
Jeff

Of course I’m talking about real people; I’ve never denied that fact. Does that prevent me from opposing their actions and lifestyles? Does that mean I can’t call what they’re doing a sin? Hardly, I think.

Gay people currently suffer more discrimination and violence against them than any other group.

Does that make their cause just?

You are wrong about Walmart. I called their PR department today, and they have no position on gay marriage. They do, however, seem rather annoyed at this LDS Urban legend. The money contributed is going to charities that benefit gay people.

Wrong about Wal-Mart? All I claimed is that they were promoting the homosexual agenda. Lending support to a cause through financial contributions is definitely a form of promotion. Think about politicians—you give your money to somebody you want to win, because you believe in their cause. If Wal-Mart gave money to a Breast Cancer Awareness organization, it would be because the company believed in that cause and wished to promote it.

So, donating money to the Washington DC Community Center for Gay, Lesbian Bisexual and Transgender People (and other kindred organizations) is definitely a move by Wal-Mart to support the cause of these centers.

Oh, and this is hardly an “LDS Urban Legend”. That statement is almost asinine in scope.

However, I can understand how anything that might benefit a gay person would be viewed as a threat to your belief system.

This depends what benefits you are talking about. Certain inalienable rights are guaranteed each citizen. Other rights (and even less so, “benefits”) are subject to the voice of those elected to create such positions.

Gay people do not threaten my beliefs. My beliefs are my own and will remain so independent of action on the part of anybody else. However, my concern for our national righteousness and stance before God (stemming from the prophetic Book of Mormon) creates in my a concern for any sin (be it homosexuality or otherwise) practiced on a large scale and promoted as normal or accepted

I am grateful that we raised our children to love and accept all people, and to leave judgement to God.

Sorry, but tolerance when pushed to extremes is just as bad. I will not teach my kids tolerance. Yes, I will teach them to love others, but to “hate the sin and love the sinner”. Sin is sin. Sin is against God’s commandments. Again, I repeat the previously-cited quote of Spencer W. Kimball:

We therefore urge Church members as citizens to lift their voices, to join others in unceasingly combatting, in their communities and beyond, the inroads of pornography and the general flaunting of permissiveness. Let us vigorously oppose the shocking developments which encourage the old sins of Sodom and Gomorrah, and which defile the human body as the temple of God.

So, while I love those with whom I disagree and whose lifestyles I oppose, such feelings of brotherly kindness don’t preclude me from being opposed (fiercely, even) to their practices and lifestyles. If my child came home and said he had stolen a car, I wouldn’t love him any less, but I certainly would not “accept” his behavior. Acceptance is detrimental to the spiritual growth of an individual when misapplied. By “accepting” the lifestyle of a sinner you are capitulating to a side God has commanded against.

It’s like Henry Ward Beecher said:

It is one of the severest tests of friendship to tell your friend his faults. So to love a man that you cannot bear to see a stain upon him and to speak painful truth through loving words, that is friendship.

Gay people currenly suffer more discrimination and violence against them than any other group. You are wrong about Walmart. I called their PR department today, and they have no position on gay marriage. They do, however, seem rather annoyed at this LDS Urban legend. The money contributed is going to charities that benefit gay people. I realize in Utah you wouldn’t have any charities that feed gay men dying of Aids, etc., but it other states these charities are pretty common, and many corporations have programs similar to Walmarts.

However, I can understand how anything that might benefit a gay person would be viewed as a threat to your belief system. I am grateful that we raised our children to love and accept all people, and to leave judgement to God.

The only potential for offense, Robert, is when you begin to level accusations at others (namely myself) without any substance or merit. Accusing me of hating gay people and being a homophobe is petty. I understand your feelings on the matter because of your son’s experience, but that does in no way diminish my own opinions and feelings. Many people have many sons who are gay. My thoughts remain the same. I feel empathy and love for these people who are my brothers and sisters, but in my mind, practicing homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of a loving Father in Heaven.

I can see from that statement that you view homosexuals as evil with some design to take over the world.

I think you should know that my son, who died 2 years ago in an automobile accident, was gay. When he came to my wife and me, and asked if we “could still love him”, we told him there was nothing he could ever do that would stop us from loving him. He was a bright, caring young man who never wavered from our faith. Of all of our children, he was the one who kept our traditions more faithfully. Our Episcopal Church is accepting of gay men and women, and they are full members of our community. It has been controversial, and our place in the Anglican Communion has been questioned.

And Aaron was a Boy Scout as a young boy. . When the subject of the Boy Scouts of America would come up, and my wife expressed anger at the Scouts, he would tell us, “they have a right to be wrong, and I am still an Eagle Scout”. A day does not go by we don’t miss him. His sister can’t talk about him, and my wife died that day, too. God forgive me, I never could comfort her enough, nor help her grieve.

When people fight against gay marriage, or see a gay conspiracy, or view them as “evil” or “immoral”, they never knew my son. Aaron did have many things to overcome in terms of people’s attitudes and bigotries. However, I know he is with Jesus.

This was not an appropriate forum to express my feelings, and if I offended anyone, I am sorry. I am a father first, last and always.

I will say this. Bottom line, I sustain the prophets and apostles. I do not view them as a “Mormon think tank.” I view them as spokesmen for God. Whether I completely understand things or not, I accept them and their statements as truths. You may call that “blind obedience” I’m sure. I call it obedience with eyes wide open. I am . . . shall we just say . . . a very intelligent woman. I am also very aware that the world has ways of making things that were once clear appear muddied.

Nowhere is this more apparent than this issue. Within my lifetime, I have watched the gay community and its supporters work public opinion with mastery and finesse. Nowhere is this more apparent than with the rising generation of youth who so completely believe what they are being told by this impressive PR campaign. I find it amusing that you so readily accept all of the world’s PR on this matter and so firmly reject the statements of the Church . . . Interesting. Please be very careful not to just blindly accept the opinions and “studies” out there as truth.

I shall share a quote in closing:
“Today I make you a promise. It’s a simple one, but it is true. If you will listen to the living prophet and the apostles and heed our counsel, you will not go astray.” – Boyd K. Packer, Apr. 2001 Ensign

(Oh, I can just hear it now . . . “No WONDER Connor is the way he is! It’s all his mother’s indoctrination!!” Very amusing — you don’t know Connor very well . . . )

I actually agree with you, Connor, that Robert’s criticism was unfair. This has been, for the most part, a civil discussion. I hope it will stay that way.

As for my part in it, I think I’ve said my peace. This is one of a small handful of issues where my religion and my brain collide. I try not to dwell on such issues much since resolving the conflict is almost impossible.