It’s time to end the 40-year Washington stranglehold on education by returning control -which means returning tax dollars- to parents and local school systems. The best immediate approach is to give parents a federal tax credit for amounts spent on education. Ultimately, however, we can only resurrect our public schools by following the Constitution and ending the federal education monopoly.Ron Paul 2002

There are probably a million books on the earth I’d rather read before touching a book on evolution.

Actually the book I reccomended is not about evolution, it is about what Francis Collins considers evidence for a god. If you don’t want to read books about evolution that’s your perogative. I think it’s unfortunate that people choose to be ignorant in the 21st century but it is your buisness and I wish you all the best.

I understand you and Travis are atheist so it’s futile for me to argue with people who believe they are smarter than their creator.

Actually, I don’t think I am smarter than my creator, I don’t believe one exists. If you think that makes me unworthy of having a discussion with, I respect your right to do as you please.

I know I am taking this thread further afield, but The LDS Church has no official position on evolution. It was at one time President David O. McKay’s opinion, though, that evolution made some sense, because, to paraphrase, ‘the ultimate result of evolution is perfection–to become like God’.

My mistake, thank you for correcting me Frank. To be honest I don’t really know much about the LDS church’s position on evolution I just remember a conversation I had with a LDS candidate in the last election. I was asking about her position on the evolution bills that Chris Buttars was sponsoring. She quoted the David O. McKay article that you mentioned. She had asssumed that I was supporting Buttars bills.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me. So I like to read stuff on evolution and let my reasoning and other powers help me decide what is true and what is not.

Good for you. I wish more people would.

The LDS Church has no official position on evolution

The Origin of Man, a statement made by the First Presidency of the church in 1909 was reprinted in the Ensign in 2002 with a heading that says it “expresses the Church’s doctrinal position on these matters”.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me. So I like to read stuff on evolution and let my reasoning and other powers help me decide what is true and what is not.

I understand you and Travis are atheist so it’s futile for me to argue with people who believe they are smarter than their creator. So I probably won’t waste my time commenting further on the matter.

There are probably a million books on the earth I’d rather read before touching a book on evolution.

Might I suggest that before you dismiss something as “utter nonsense,” you should be willing to study it and find out what it really is. Most people who dismiss evolution don’t understand it, and the ones who understand it and still dismiss it usually do so because of faith, not because of a flaw in the theory. Kurt Wise is an excellent example. So, I wouldn’t dismiss evolution without studying it. Of course, I won’t dismiss anything I don’t know about, but that’s just me. :)

Also, you don’t have to be a Christian to be antievolution. many Jews and Muslims are as well. The LDS church’s official position is that it does not feel that evolution conflicts with their doctrine. Most Christians in the world have accepted evolution just as they have accepted that the earth really does revolve around the sun. In the USA though most people do not believe in evolution and I think it says something bad about our education system.

I suggest reading “The Language of God” by Francis Collins to get a Christian who is also a scientist’s view on evolution.

The theory of evolution is the most important theory in biology today.

Blah! The theory of evolution is utter nonsense. I went to a public school and didn’t learn this. My 9th grade biology teacher basically skipped right over that chapter by basically saying “some people think we evolved from apes.” The funny think is she was not LDS. I don’t even know if she was Christian.

There is an LDS private school in Spanish Fork, and I think the kids who go there are poorly prepared to enter the world when they graduate. Being in Utah, we’re sheltered enough as it is without being put in a private school where the curriculum is determined by the administration. I don’t think the kids there are taught about evolution- how will they react when they take basic biology in college?

Very good point Andrea. The theory of evolution is the most important theory in biology today. Many children are not being taught about it. What is worse is that many children are being misinformed about evolution and in some cases lied to. I hate to use strong words like “lie” but unfortunately it’s the truth. Sometimes science is replaced with theology. Whether a theory falls into the category of science or metaphysics is not decided by popular vote. Theories have to meet very specific criteria in order to be called science, most importantly they have to be falsifiable. In other words, there has to be a way to prove the theory wrong. Divine intervention is not falsifiable because assuming a supreme being exists and does not want us to have scientific proof of his existence, he could always design things in a way to appear naturally caused.

In an ideal system, the money would follow the student, so that the subsidy would be larger and allow a parent to choose a school without having to continue to pay into the public education pork barrel.

Ideally everyone would have the money to send their own children to the private school of their choosing and then their would be no need for vouchers, no need for public schools, and no need for the government to use our tax money to support religious schools. Remember that everyone who pays taxes supports the schools, not just those with school age children. I do feel that parents should have the choice to send their children to the school of their choosing. I do not feel that it is the parents right to receive tax money to send them to the school of their choosing regardless of whether or not the schools are religious based or meet good standards for science education.

The funding situation would actually benefit public schools while allowing those who wish to opt out to do so.

This is something I don’t get. It seems that some of the voucher advocates want to argue that the system will increase funding and force them to compete at the same time. I can understand how it will increase funding for 5 years while the school continues to receive funding sure, but after that they would be receiving less funding because they would be competing. I don’t see how you can have it both ways. It’s like saying that Harmons will get more funding if I shop at Walmart because they will have fewer customers to serve.

Some Parents might want to send their children to a school that opens the day with Prayer.

That’s fine. They should have that choice, but they should do it with their own money, not mine and other taxpayers who do not want to support religious institutions that they don’t agree with.

Some might want their children taught the principles of the Founding Fathers, as they stated them originally.

I think that most parents want that, which is why don’t want to support private schools as some of them have their own version of history that they want to promote.

It seems to me a little odd that here in the state of Utah, there is so much resistance to Parents having a choice of where to send their children to school. I have always thought that we as a people believed in the right to choose. I don’t understand all of the pressure that comes from outside our state with the funding to fight against this right to choose. There are two signs in my neighborhood that ask us to vote against, but I don’t see any to ask us to vote for it. What are the Public School officials and teachers afraid of? If the schools are good then that is where the parents will choose to send their children. Some Parents might want to send their children to a school that opens the day with Prayer. Some might want their children taught the principles of the Founding Fathers, as they stated them originally. The government they gave us was all about the right to choose.
The past while Nebo School District has taken the students out of two schools here in Springville and built new ones. These older schools could be used. I would imagine that a Private School would be more than happy to make use of those schools.
Now we have a choice to make in the November referendum, I hope you will take the time to vote.

Life isn’t fair.

My biggest issue with vouchers is this: Have you read the Dr. Suess book about the Star Bellied Sneetches? If not, you should. It’s a good one.

There’s a point here, I just KNOW it. (I’ve read it. It seemed to be about wanting to fit in, but I can’t remember.)

Plus when public schools start closing because there isn’t enough kids, and they don’t bus as far out as the kids live, and the parents don’t have cars to drive them, what then?

Then, of course, the sky will fall. What are you suggesting? That the system we have now will just suddenly ignore these children? Is that even thinkable? The bus routes will be extended. Or the parents will start a local homeschool program. Or some enterprising capitalist will introduce a low-cost Internet-based curriculum. What then is any number of things, but at least it won’t be “stay trapped in a proven-to-fail school.”

If public schools are so good, couldn’t they simply leave their children in public education? They would enjoy smaller class sizes if some other students leave, thus receiving more personal attention and individualized instruction.

As I argued in the post, the subsidy isn’t enough, but it’s a step in the right direction. In an ideal system, the money would follow the student, so that the subsidy would be larger and allow a parent to choose a school without having to continue to pay into the public education pork barrel.

Plus when public schools start closing because there isn’t enough kids…

I really doubt that would ever happen under a Voucher program. Has it happened in other areas of the country where vouchers are available? No. Would there be a mass exodus of students from public schools? I highly doubt it. The funding situation would actually benefit public schools while allowing those who wish to opt out to do so.

I think the kids who go there are poorly prepared to enter the world when they graduate.

Is this the fault of the school, or of the parent?

You see, this raises an important issue: who is responsible for a child’s proper education and development? The state, the school, or the parent? Parents must take responsibility for the educational upbringing of their children, and thus it is their fault if their child is “poorly prepared to enter the world”, whether they have attended a public or private school.

Being in Utah, we’re sheltered enough as it is without being put in a private school where the curriculum is determined by the administration.

But if the parents had the choice of what school to attend, if they didn’t like the curriculum they could simply choose another. And is it not better to have local people choose a curriculum than bureaucrats thousands of miles away who think that all children should receive the same exact education that they deem best? In a federalized educational system, autonomy is taken away from the school districts to have any say in the curriculum.

It does them a great disservice to not teach them the curriculum determined by the state, which has been determined over very long periods of time by many able and knowledgeable people.

I’d suggest some reading by John Taylor Gatto to refute this sentiment. I disagree that the state’s determined educational standard is praiseworthy. As I linked to in the article, there are numerous evidences that numbers are fudged and standards are reduced, all because schools are failing and children are becoming “dumber”, as it were. Clearly there are problems with a federalized education that can only be addressed by local action and autonomy.

As a future educator, I appreciate the public school system, and see both the flaws and the good parts of it.

I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on its flaws, and what you suggest be done to fix them.

I don’t want to separate my kids from the rest of society. I don’t feel like I should shield them from life’s temptations or trials.

I definitely agree as a parent and a freethinker. It is critical for a child’s growing process to be exposed to other ways of thinking and other viewpoints even though I as a parent may not agree with all of them. Of course it’s important to shield children from certain things especially when they are very young, but I think many parents go too far.

Kudos to you Dustin to allow you’re children to learn other ways of looking at life and hopefully decide for themselves. It takes courage, but I believe if everyone did it, the world would be a better place with more love in it and less prejudice.

When I first heard of this voucher program I thought, “sounds like a good idea to me.” Then it hit close to home. My wife wants to put our daughter in private school and her parents have even agreed to pay for it. I said no.

The problem is that I can’t really explain why I don’t want my kids in private school. I would say that whatever education they may not get in school, we can help provide in our home. I admit, I’m cheap. I don’t want to pay private school tuition for each of my kids my whole life and I don’t want my in-laws paying for it because I can’t afford it. I don’t want to separate my kids from the rest of society. I don’t feel like I should shield them from life’s temptations or trials. Certainly God does not shield us from everything. It’s necessary for our growth. Even his Only Begotten was not reserved for the best environment – rather he was put in the middle of the worst. My hope is that we can fortify and strengthen our home enough that my children can go out and be and influence for good on society.

I understand all these points can easily be argued, but when it comes down to it, to me, it just doesn’t feel right.

I read Lonsberry’s post as well as an email from my dad who has been a public school teacher his whole life and the points they make are valid as well.

So I have flip-flopped on this one. I’m opposed to the voucher program. Yes, public schools need reform. There are a lot of things broken in America, but I don’t think private schools are the answer. I would rather see parents spend their efforts getting involved to help fix the public school problems.

(Needless to say, the favorite son-in-law has now fallen from grace) :(