November 6th, 2012

Where the Political Battle Lines Lie

I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve seen people claim that “this is the most important election of our lifetimes.”

‘Twas ever thus, right? Each election reaches a fever pitch among entrenched partisan lines, with more people voting for their party’s nominee merely because he’s not the other guy. We’re told that calamity awaits should that guy get elected, and therefore we must fall in line and save the Republic by supporting the better option of the two.

Media attention, money, energy, activity—everybody’s focus and efforts seem to be drawn to the overflowing cesspool known as Washington, D.C. As government grows, so do the efforts of interested parties in wresting control of the jackpot in favor of their own faction. Power increasingly centralizes in the federal government, and so more and more people find themselves determined to either harness or hinder that power for their perceived benefit.

Thomas Jefferson once wrote, “When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another, and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated.”

Jefferson wrote in the future tense. You and I can write in the past and present tense. This has become our reality. And too many people wrongly believe that the solution to combating centralized power is to first wrest control of that centralized power—willingly assimilating themselves into the Borg collective in the name of fighting against it. In doing so, such individuals enable the very thing against which they claim to be combating. Realizing that representation in and reform of Parliament was unachievable and undesirable, the founders realigned their political battle lines and opted instead for secession. They redrew the political lines to better achieve liberty, and so must we.

Liberty-minded individuals must realize that fighting the federal government within that same government is ultimately unachievable and undesirable. For every good bill passed, ten thousand tyrannical ones are added to an insanely voluminous set of laws. For every constitutionally-minded candidate elected, scores more entrench themselves within the establishment to institutionally violate liberty on a daily basis.

Today is election day—perhaps, as is passionately claimed by so many, the “most important” in recent decades.

But whether candidate A or candidate B is elected, the federal government will continue on its course of unconstitutional and immoral arrogation of authority it was never intended to have. Wars will be waged, surveillance and detention of American citizens will increase, bread and circuses will continue to quell the ignorant masses, and the flaxen cords of bondage will become increasingly rigid as more and more Americans willingly place the fetters around their own wrists. Expending so much effort to elect either of those candidates will not change this course. A different solution is needed.

Punch and Judy may seem to children like separate characters on the surface, but the true nature of the presentation is betrayed by focusing on the puppeteer controlling both. The D.C. machine marches onward independent of which political party is in power, and which president is elected. The pattern has been consistent for decades, and no fancy campaign speeches have later led to any significant deviation from this long-standing trend.

Fighting the state only on its own territory is political suicide. The place to fight the federal government is in the hearts and homes of our families and peers.

This sounds trite, but it’s the only way to succeed against the state. Like the founders, we must secede—opt out from an aggressive, distant, centralized government which has become destructive to life, liberty, and property. Our revolution can and should be a peaceful one; our secession can be a piecemeal one.

The federal government will not restrain the federal government. State governments should be used to provide this check and interpose between individuals and D.C. And those individuals should focus on living and popularizing a life of personal responsibility, where the state ultimately finds itself irrelevant because productive people are peacefully taking care of themselves and one another.

Elections do not bring the solutions that liberty-loving Americans look for. That effort begins on a much more fundamental level, where politicians, policies, and government programs have no say and no sway. Today’s election will come and go, and whoever wins will oversee and expand a government so massive that it nearly defies comprehension. It’s time to stop spending so much time, money, and political capital fighting to take the hill and impose our own set of rules. Fight for liberty in your homes, in your neighborhoods, and at a local and state level where the return on investment is higher. Shrinking Washington is a bottom-up approach, and always was.

29 Responses to “Where the Political Battle Lines Lie”

  1. Denny
    November 6, 2012 at 8:52 am #

    I don’t like this background…I thought my screen was dirty!

  2. Danette
    November 6, 2012 at 9:07 am #

    I think you fight for freedom on every side that you can bottom-up and top down. Slowing the pace the government grows is better than voting for it to grown faster…and continuing to work from the bottom up at the same time.

  3. outside the corridor
    November 6, 2012 at 9:19 am #

    Thanks, Connor, for all you have done for the cause of liberty–

    Don’t know if you’ve been following any of the interminable discussions on other ‘posts’, but I think you are one of those (or could be) ‘elders of Israel’ who may save the constitution–

    but I don’t want you to think that I’ve nominating you for any position–LOL!

    I think you are one of a group of quiet young (and old and older) men/women in the church who is waiting–

    and learning and teaching–

    like Ron Paul.

    I’m glad I found this blog–

  4. Daniel B.
    November 6, 2012 at 12:04 pm #

    I agree, to an extent, that large scale change isn’t going to happen with one election and, further, that the biggest changes have to be made locally. That said, one cannot ignore what happens globally or nationally, either. It is, in the end, a republic and requires change in more localities than just ours if we are to prevent, or push back, federal interference in our locality.

  5. Jimx
    November 6, 2012 at 3:36 pm #

    Connor,
    Very strange if not ironic imagery you have chose for this post. I get it that msm must be the mainstream media, and the pyramid is from the back of the US $1 bill. But George Washington was a freemason, and I think they used egyptian symbols however rightly, wrongly or distorted. I am not sure what ancient egypt would have thought about our modern era, let alone the current election cycle.

    Then there is the LDS use of the all seeing eye, appearing on LDS coinage, the salt lake temple, and perhaps other places. Probably not intended in this context, but I could help but notice that and comment on that. Perhaps the masons or the LDS body are actually controlling the elections behind the scenes? Somehow I can visualize egyptian mummies rolling over in their graves/pyramids.

  6. Michael Lee McKee
    November 9, 2012 at 6:26 am #

    Connor:

    Now that the evil Mormon has been silenced by those with miraculous enlightenment and political wisdom, what should those of us who supported him with diminished light and guidance do to redeem ourselves? Hopefully, some among us will strive to spend the next two to four years sharing their recently discovered illumination with us Older White Males who have, apparently, learned very little about discerning the character of a man as opposed to his constitutional understanding and political leanings.

    I, personally, cherish my decision to cast my vote for the better of the two evils. Unfortunately, we will never know the good which may have been realized by electing a man who has the power, through the Holy Ghost, to recive truthful revelation as opposed to the soul who was, directly or indirectly, chosen who obviously takes his direction from the opposite source of guidance.

  7. Val
    November 9, 2012 at 7:49 am #

    I know the Gospel is true. I served a mission. I have benefited from the existence of the Gospel on earth and believe that history proves its existence is not guaranteed. Turning a large ship isn’t as easy as turning a canoe but the ship can easily swamp and destroy multitudes of canoes. The ship of state won’t turn on a dime and only one man has built a perfect enough “Zion” to be translated. If your idealism cost the country the election of Romney and Obama finishes the destruction of the only country that upholds some of the fragments of free agency (which I believe is the only birthright of our existence) will you be held accountable? I believe that H. Verlan Andersen would say yes.

    The scriptures say we are to be perfect but it is a journey that brings that to pass not the destination. Perfectionism in politics has only happened once, even the Founders were not able to establish perfection. The Declaration of Independence should have never substituted “the pursuit of happiness” for “property” and they should have added “knowledge: as H. Verlan Andersen opines. But no one clarified the fatal flaws and the drift to where we are today started.

  8. outside the corridor
    November 9, 2012 at 2:58 pm #

    I am sensing anger from those who came on this ‘libertarian’ LDS site to express their strong opinion that those of *us* who don’t believe Romney would have been any better (with different areas of dysfunction) than Obama–

    have sinned in not voting for Romney.

    Do any of *you* realize that even with the third party/write-in votes, Obama would have won?

    So, why the need to punish those of *us* who stuck to our political ‘guns’?

    Is it cathartic?

    So much sarcasm. After facing it in my ward and from my friends and family, I am tired of it. This blaming is–
    becoming almost frightening. Do you realize what happened when the Jews were blamed in Germany?
    And, of course, those of *you* who think Romney would have been a good POTUS (or that he had any moral fiber, in spite of his horrific business dealings and his past policies in government, including the pre-script for Obamacare and pro-choice)–
    don’t think that the Muslims have been blamed and dehumanized in order to get *us* into more wars for the oil interests of the world–

    I am beginning to realize that those of *you* who are so angry with those of *us* who see things differently–

    still believe that the mainstream media tells the truth, the government tells the truth (unless the president is Democratic and not completely white, and, no, I have never voted for Obama)–

    and that *we* can accept the world at face value. *We* can also accept Romney at face value.

    No Mormon has ever been a stake president and corrupt, ever–

    couldn’t have, ever–

    The Book of Mormon makes it clear (*sarcasm alert*) that if a person holds the priesthood he can never go wrong or have shady business dealings and that once the gift of the Holy Ghost is bestowed, it can’t be lost, especially through dishonest/unethical/destructive of human lives business dealings–

    And the D&C also makes it clear that once a man has the priesthood he can do no wrong–
    And once the Holy Ghost is conferred, there will be continuous revelation.

    Another person on another discussion here on CC told *me* that my information about Romney was ‘biased propaganda’–

    Obama has been quite open in his evil (which has good and bad consequences); he hasn’t even tried to cover up his foolish health plan or his attack on civil liberties or his assassinations or his drones over Pakistan.

    Romney has covered up, quite well, many of the same things he has done under the cover of business–

    but, because he is LDS and wealthy, *we* can forgive him for all that and believe that his participation (contribution to) the deaths of tens of thousands of cotton farmers in India (due to his lucrative GMO projects) don’t count–

    He has the gift of the Holy Ghost, after all–

    Only Obama’s ridiculous health plan counts.

    So LDS care more about the cost of health care in the U.S. than they do about the loss of lives in India (due to private business)–

    and few LDS who were anti-Obama (I am, too, but I am not naive enough to believe he is the only evil puppet who ran for president)–

    ever have mentioned the cost of lives in Pakistan because of Obama’s deplorable drones activation–

    Where are LDS priorities?

    It’s the pocketbook; always the pocketbook.

    Now, call me a “commie”; go ahead. I have been independent; I have worked hard; I don’t participate in any of the healthcare ponzi schemes; I will probably pay the penalty, if Obama’s fiasco gets off the ground–

    but since Romney did the same thing in Massachusetts when he was a governor, why are you so confident in believing he wouldn’t do it again?

    And, Val, quite a few of *us* (including myself and my spouse) who supported Ron Paul served missions, too–

    Romney supporters aren’t the only ones who served missions–

    Romney could have done something, I believe–

    if he had avoided the cruel and inhumane business practices and still had some influence, and if he had studied the constitution–

    Then maybe he would have been able to become POTUS–

    Don’t blame *us*!

  9. outside the corridor
    November 9, 2012 at 3:00 pm #

    But I need to remember:

    Most of the Romney supporters listen to Rush Limbaugh, who believes that Obama would be a better POTUS than Ron Paul–

    and who works for a radio station that is owned by Clear Channel–

    which is owned by . . .

    Romney’s Bain.

    It’s quite simple really.

  10. outside the corridor
    November 9, 2012 at 3:58 pm #

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57547239/adviser-romney-shellshocked-by-loss/

    Some of *us* who believe *we* have had a political awakening–

    don’t think the election was fair (any of it, including the RNC’s part)–

    some of *us* believe that the elections have long been rigged–

    if that is the case (and there is some validation for that possibility)—

    then why blame those who stood by their principles?

    I believe, truly, that the Romney campaign either agreed to be bulldozed or were shocked, because they weren’t sure that Obama would win–

    I believe that those who are running the show behind the scenes–

    planned for Obama to win–

    and no matter how *we* voted . . .

    he became president–

    I have heard Romney’s concession speech; it’s interesting how the people clap for themselves–

  11. outside the corridor
    November 9, 2012 at 4:00 pm #

    “you guys are the best”–

    who likes to hear that?

    Not I–

    I’m not here in the world to be the ‘best’ of anything; I’m here to fulfill my God-given mission–

  12. Michael Lee McKee
    November 9, 2012 at 5:51 pm #

    Brother Romney received approximately 58,000,000 votes. I should think Rush would be quite happy to have most of those folks as listeners. I must admit to listening to Rush nearly every day. I would likely know absolutely nothing about my political enemies were it not for his efforts to show me who they are. The blessings really are quite simple.

    BTW, I also receive a great deal of truthful information from Brother Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Fox News, Chuck Baldwin, News With Views, The New American, The JBS Bulletin, Gun Owners of America, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Connors Conundrums, most of the words ever uttered by President Ezra Taft Benson, W. Cleon Skousen, and Verlyn H. Andersen. I have utilized The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price, and the King James Bible. I have even learned a few things from the fifteen men who comprise the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Perhaps I suffer from information overload. Oh! my gosh, I nearly forgot The Holy Ghost.

    I am greatful to those who stand by their principles. Hopefully, if I am permitted to tarry for a few more years, I’ll also discover my own priciples.

    Well, anyway, we need not be further concerned about the man who will some day realize just how fortunate and blessed he was to have lost. Hopefully he and Ann will seek to serve in the mission field. One might wonder how many of us would by unable to raise our hand to support and sustain him should he be called to a leadership position in the church. Fortunately, I will not have a problem doing so.

    I applaud this site too because the truth is heard to find. I’ll try to be the best of everyhing I am called to do once I discern precisely what mission God has given me.

  13. Michael Lee McKee
    November 9, 2012 at 6:04 pm #

    Forgive me, but I failed to include the many years of financial, prayerful and moral support I have invested in Ron Paul over the past several years. I hope he’ll forgive me for supporting the brother who came to this earth 17 days previous to my arival. You see, I told Mitt when he left that I would one day remember our premortal friendship. At least part of my mission is complete.

  14. Val
    November 10, 2012 at 7:53 am #

    Ok outside the corridor you make very thoughtful remarks. Maybe I’m being a little hard from your view point but I will try to give some context.

    First I am as radically in Ron Paul’s camp as anyone I personally know. I think Gary Johnson is the titular example of leadership in government as best I understand his time as the Governor of New Mexico. Mr. Johnson’s remarks on every interview I saw or listened to were always so clearly on the side of “The Proper Role of Government”

    I have read, all of H. Verlan Andersen’s (I can only find five) books, all of Cleon Skousen’s books (I think seven or eight), all of Ayn Rand’s books published by or about her (give or take fifteen), Mark Levin’s three books as well as dozens of other authors from the Founder’s time to the present. I’ve read most of Bastiat, Hyack and Von Mises, the writings of Adam Smith (daunting) and several other books on economics.

    Thanks to the guys who put up the podcasts on LDS Liberty I learned of John C. Greene who wrote “Walking in Darkness at Noon-Day”. This is one of the latest books along with LDS Liberty by CC that I have also read.

    Beside what I have read, more importantly I attended a talk given by Steven Covey while I was in the mission field. President M. Russell Ballard was our mission president and a good friend of Covey’s. On Covey’s travel back from IBM in New York he stopped in Toronto to give the talk. President Ballard invited all the missionaries to attend. I believe this was January of 1975.

    Covey gave the most powerful talk I have ever heard in my lifetime to date. His talk started at verse 33 and continued to the end. He claimed that in essence this was the same talk he gave to businesses that hired him to teach the principles of leadership. Our version of what he taught though was the distilled version, straight from the scriptures. What a freeing talk it was. I had always known that a mission was between myself my investigator and the Lord and as long as I was trying as hard as I could to help the investigator that the Lord would help and give me inspiration as to things I could do to be effective. Gone was the haunting politics of control which emanated from Zone Leaders and Assistants. His talk proved how any one who ever wants to lead must abide by or “Amen to their Priesthood or authority.

    Next I took a class from H. Verlan Andersen while I was at BYU. I believe this was the fall semester of 1977. As I sat spellbound in his class for the entire semester I had no idea of who he was. I knew only that this man was in the same vein as Covey regarding his understanding of “Free Agency”. Not until about three years ago did I find the five books he wrote after reading Greenes book “Walking in Darkness”. Since reading Andersen’s books I was able to piece together the mystery of this teacher I had been referencing, quoting and teaching about for thirty years and discover that he was H. Verlan Andersen. I lhave told many people in talks and conversations that I consider myself to blessed beyond my wildest dreams to have been mentored even a little by two of the greatest teachers of our time regarding free agency.

    With this as my background I am probably closer to you than 99.999% of all those you come in contact with.

    My point on Romney is much more a strategic point than a principled point. I believe we may be passing the point where the more part of the people have become wicked. I was hoping that if that point in time were close that we could do something to allow us to battle another day. I have heard that George Washington was the master of retreat. He knew when to retreat so he could regroup and again “live to fight another day”. My dream would be to have Ron Paul or Gary Johnson but this is a time that I am afraid my dream could be the cause of a real nightmare.

    I hope this helps.

  15. outside the corridor
    November 10, 2012 at 10:47 am #

    MLM (sorry to abbreviate) and Val,

    Thank you. Your responses are very humane. :)

    I’ve been following (not as in ‘follow the prophet’, which I don’t believe is scriptural anyway) Ron Paul since 1986–

    Voted for him in 1988.

    I don’t know what happened between Dr. Paul and Mitt Romney (or if anything did), but Romney’s team was brutal before, during, and after the RNC–

    and Rush Limbaugh has been very critical of Ron Paul–

    There are many who believe that this nation would not have been able to handle the extreme changes that a Ron Paul would have made–

    I, for one, was ‘ready’ to try–

    I am sick of the never-ended wars, and I suspect any man who receives such vast donations from Goldman-Sachs, even if he is a Mormon.

    In my lifetime I have been some real ‘rotters’ who were stake presidents. I mean, ruthless, unprincipled, brutal men–

    These were not my own stake presidents, actually–

    but these were men I knew with whom close family/friends worked and some of whose stake members I knew by the dissolution of their lives when they came into contact with these men.

    I also know, now, in my ward, a man (works with my husband closely in a calling) who was in Mitt Romney’s ward–

    Mitt’s smile was for the wealthy and privileged; he was brutal to those who were struggling financially (and not government-dependent, but quite independent and hard-working) within his stake. Our friend experienced his shunning behavior. From him we saw the ‘church’ side of Mitt Romney; he spoke of those who were underprivileged who experienced the sting of their stake president’s rejection.

    This man was very careful to tell these things only to two men; he dared not say anything in the group (high priests) for fear of being ‘tarred and feathered’ figuratively–

    What is *our* responsibility when we know something about the personality of a public figure? I don’t know–

    but I do believe that if someone runs for public office . . .—

    he is opening his (or her) book for all to see–

    So, thank you, both of you–

    I am afraid this country has passed the point of no return, as well–

  16. outside the corridor
    November 10, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    sorry; our ward member was in Mitt Romney’s stake–

    I dare not go into any more detail, to be honest; I don’t want anyone to get hurt–

    :(

  17. outside the corridor
    November 10, 2012 at 11:02 am #

    I don’t believe that Mitt Romney would have been allowed to get as far as he did (the PTB needed at least the appearance of an election) if he hadn’t been willing to do the things the puppetmasters wanted–

    After all, he saw Iran as a threat and was as pro-NDAA, etc. as Obama–

    Ron Paul (or Gary Johnson) could not be allowed to get into a position where they could threaten the well-made plans of the PTB–

    which both of them would have done–

    in spite of the fact that many Americans supported Ron Paul (and even Gary Johnson)

  18. Michael Lee McKee
    November 10, 2012 at 11:39 am #

    Apparently my eccentric word usage and tone has, once again, been construed by some to believe and declare that a sense of anger and sarcasm exists within the context of my ramblings. It is beyond my understanding how I have failed, once again, to realize that I must construct my thoughts in such a way as to elicit a more agreeable response from those who find my approach offensive and unacceptable. My failure to detect anger in my writings is certainly no excuse for behaving badly on this “Libertarian LDS site.” Notwithstanding my shameful behavior in this conversation, I stand firm in my convictions for having supported the candidate who, in my opinion, stood the higher ground and offered himself as the only viable alternative under the current corrupt system.

    I try to be factual when offering my opinions. I have found it is much wiser than attempting to sway opinions with political talking points and excessive undocumented conversational filler which is extremely hard to folow and tends to elicit yawning and horizontal head shaking.

    I become fearful when attempts are made to misconstrue and contextually rape my heartfelt composition. Fortunately, I am comfortable in my own skin and even when some would strive to declare my ignorance, I am able to look back on their words with a clear understanding that I am certainly not alone. I suppose it concerns me even more when their words tend to tear someone down rather than concentrate on what they believe.

    Well, now that the election is over, and the process has reset, we may all go back to our zones of comfort where nothing really matters and we will, once again, be able to contemplate our “awful situation” privately. Or will we.

  19. Michael Lee McKee
    November 10, 2012 at 12:38 pm #

    Val:

    You are most fortunate to have been tought directly by H. Verlan Andersen. I have never considered Covey, but perhaps should do so. My opportunity to be taught by HVA did not present itself until several months ago when I consumed all I could find in PDF from, I believe, the same LDS Liberty site you mentioned.

    Although I was baptized in the South China Sea while serving in the U. S. Army in Chu Lai, Vietnam in July 1971, I unwisely chose to take a thirty year trip back into the world shortly thereafter. Thankfully the Lord prevented me from self-destruction so I could regain the blessings of the atonement in December of 2001. Since that time, I have grown to love ETB, WCS, and others for their love of the correct principles of the gospel as well as the governance of this land. I affectionately consider WCS as one of the secular apostles the Lord chose.

  20. me
    November 10, 2012 at 9:00 pm #

    A second-hand account of Romney as a stake president has been given in a comment here, the type that sullies a person’s name whether accurate or not, and to give some fairness and a second second-hand account, I have a family member that met with him on many occasions because of personal problems while he was his stake president, and he only speaks of him with the highest praise. This source was not a person of means or particularly good circumstances at the time, and he felt that Romney was an inspired, charitable, loving man of God. Since this is second-hand, just like the other comment, I can’t substantiate any of it beyond insisting that the first-hand source is one that I know to be exceptionally honest and also highly skeptical and critical of the vast majority of people.

  21. jimx
    November 11, 2012 at 6:33 am #

    I once saw a bumper sticker which read, “Cthulhu for President, why vote for the lesser of two evils?” After looking up Cthulhu I thought it was pretty funny.

    I am still wondering how a ‘libertarian LDS’ is defined. I think I have asked several times, and I just simply don’t get it. I think I like it because it seems to be a different type of LDS, but seems to be in the minority, and more of a person I don’t think of as really being lds. I suppose I need to more fully understand both philosophies.

  22. outside the corridor
    November 11, 2012 at 9:11 am #

    me: I don’t doubt the honesty of the person who gave me his account of Romney either. Guess we’re at an impasse. Perhaps he was kind to those who were being counseled–

    The fact is that Romney’s business activities are activities in which he engaged as a free agent. He had the choice to do the things he did, so if his name has been ‘sullied’ by those activities, he chose that.
    As for his time as a SP and bishop, I have no doubt there are many who have praised him; those praises have flooded e-mails and FB–

    The man (and his family) in my ward who had another account of him . . . was careful in what he said; he went into greater detail, which I will spare you, but from his perspective Romney’s personality was not comfortable with those who had less. Everyone has a right to his/her opinion. The fact is that when someone decides to run for a public office, his record is open–

    Most Mormons have not wanted to look at Romney’s business record, but it’s out there for all to see.

    You know, I would like to like and respect Romney. I would even like to think that he was a good stake president and bishop. I think it would be amazing, inspiring even, to have a Mormon with so much honor and integrity that the world would stand up and take notice–who would run for a high office. But his business activtities preclude that–

    I can’t pretend not to notice. This from a dyed in the wool Republican background. Most of my family have been diehard Romney supporters as well. And in our ward, we (husband and I) and the man/wife who were in Romney’s stake were the only ones who didn’t vote for him or talk about him with great adoration . . .

    for the past six months–

    I’m glad it’s over. Maybe there can be healing now–

    All I know is that if I were a non-LDS and had researched Romney’s business activities I would not think very much of Mormons.

  23. outside the corridor
    November 11, 2012 at 9:22 am #

    Jimx,

    I do consider myself to be an LDS libertarian. I don’t believe in either the GOP or the Democrats anymore–

    they have failed this nation.

    I believe in agency. But I also believe that no society can exist, much less prosper, as long as there is no honor/integrity and virtue.

    A ‘man’s ‘word’ used to bind him; it could be known easily if a man was not telling the truth. Our present culture/society has become so corrupt that it is very difficult to tell when someone is being honest, or not.

    I don’t believe the world was meant to be run by big banks and corporations. I believe in free enterprise on a smaller scale, that each man/woman has a right to make/produce/create and either barter or sell.

    I believe that interest/usury has gone beyond acceptable limits–South Dakota started it–

    Only with honest people who don’t want to hurt other human beings and who mean what they say and live as they profess to believe . . .

    can there ever be order or justice.

    In the meantime a few very wealthy do oppress the poor, and the middle class is disappearing.

    In the Book of Mormon there was no redistribution managed by governments (when the people were righteous); individuals worked hard and took care of themselves, and nobody turned their backs on the poor (poor from health or disability or age more than likely)–

    when the people became hard-hearted and gave their hearts and business to the Gadiantons, the poor people suffered–

    the difference is that in the Book of Mormon the Lamanites kept the Nephites humble, most of the time.

    Sending our poorer young people to the middle east to kill Iraqis and Aghanistanis and Pakistanis has not humbled the Americans–

    even Mormons, not most of *them*. I feel ashamed and wretched that *my* country has done this atrocious thing–

    I hope that Romney not becoming POTUS may make a few LDS stop and question themselves and how they are living–

    and what for Americans at least . . . what their nation has condoned for decades.

    I don’t believe in redistribution/socialism. And I don’t believe in vulture capitalism. Pure capitalism has not been allowed to work; there have been too many Gadiantons hijacking it–

    That is what I believe, and I call myself a libertarian. In a truly free nation . . . where there are no secret combinations, and where all people are honest–

    there would be little suffering and no war–

    and people who have would not be compelled to give to those who do not have, and there would be no hunger–

    but I don’t believe it’s going to happen. I can still believe in it–

    that it is good, even if it can’t happen.

    And then when Jesus reigns, I don’t believe He will force anyone to give anything to anyone else, but I do believe that people won’t want to hurt others in order to have wealth anymore–

    I have believed in the constitution; it’s not popular to do that anymore–

  24. AV
    November 11, 2012 at 1:47 pm #

    Michael Mckee,

    Just because a man is a member or even leader of the Church does not mean he is righteous and has the Priesthood or Holy Ghost. Many church leaders have fallen or were ‘wolves in sheeps clothing’ at the time they were called to office.

    Most all of the Bishops and Stake Presidents I have had I would not sustain or support, because of the evil they do and support, while pretending to be righteous, fooling everyone but a rare few.

    Even Joseph Smith was deceived to call evil men to be Apostles. John Bennett being one of them. Yet, I believe Joseph was a true prophet, and as soon as he found out about Bennett’s and other apostles true characters, he excommunicated them or he meant to but died before he could do so. So Pres. Monson can easily be deceived too today, along with every other leader in the Church.

    By their fruits ye shall know them, and thus, I would never support Mitt Romney for any elected office, let alone for any Church leadership position. For he has proven to me, over and over that he believes in satan’s Socialism, and that he does not support or believe in the Constitution and liberty, nor do I believe he has the Spirit, for he appears to be so easily deceived to support and go along with evil. And Joseph Smith said that those with the Holy Spirit wouldn’t be deceived. So Mitt is easy to detect.

    I also believe the Book of Mormon prophesy that foretells that in the last days everyone, even in the Church, except a rare few, will be deceived to fall for evil and become corrupt, voting for wolves in sheeps clothing, falling for false prophets and all manner of false doctrines. I believe this has happened, actually has happened over 100 years ago, yet the universal deception goes on and dwindling in unbelief goes one, undetected, and it is very hard to find anyone who truly believes in the gospel of Jesus Christ or the Constitution today, especially in the Church.

  25. jimx
    November 11, 2012 at 4:28 pm #

    OTC,
    Well,thank you for trying to explain. I think I have become too unLDS to really understand where you are coming from. I don’t believe in free agency, if that means one can make choices independent of every other influence. Its like a person sailing, one can make turns by changing the direction of the sail, or the rudder, but the wind and water remain the same. There is much, if not most that people can’t change or have control over.

    I was raised to believe that the constitution was of divine origin. Well, I was still skeptical of that, but went along with it because…well I was supposed to not question that. I have believed for a long time that it was simply just the work of intelligent people. But until I just started writing the post I am wondering if in fact the constitution was guided in some way by supernatural forces.

    Weren’t most of the founding father involved in free masonry? Most people think of the original masons as being a highly secret cult of the occult. You can see the symbolism all over Washington D.C. with obelisks, and other things. Supposedly the roads in D.C. form a pentagram with a key point ending up in the oval office.

    They were indeed interested in freedom in general and religious freedom. Christianity was never spelled out or endorsed in the document. God is never mentioned. Somehow all of this get overlooked. I found a link which connects the Illuminati to the founding of the US and the constitution. It might be total bunk, the title was sensational, but I really need to do homework…and perhaps its really not that interesting.

  26. jimx
    November 11, 2012 at 4:32 pm #

    Av,
    Has anyone done the good spirit, bad spirit test on Mitt Romney detailed in D&C 129? I have always assumed that he was a mortal person, but if spirits can appear to people at all, how does one really know if hes really human? I didn’t know that one could touch an angel. I am not sure this is such a reliable test. It makes me wonder a lot of things, like what is the actual context in which a spiritual being can and cannot appear?

  27. AV
    November 11, 2012 at 5:04 pm #

    Good points in both your posts jim!

  28. outside the corridor
    November 14, 2012 at 7:56 am #

    Yes, Jimx, I believe that some among the founding fathers were involved with the illuminati–

    I’m not sure what that means either–

    Some say that the illuminati used to be good and became perverted or was infiltrated. Who knows? Not I.

    But, yes, I wonder about all those symbols, etc.

  29. Alan M. Taylor
    November 19, 2012 at 10:36 pm #

    Connor,

    Thoughtfully written, but I remain curious as to how far one may fairly extrapolate this idea, elsewhere referred to as Agorism.

    If “good people disobey bad laws” – then how do you envision this squaring with the 12th Article of Faith?

    Others have argued that the Libertarian party’s enthusiasm would be better served by trying to internally influence the Republican party – in lieu of striking out solo. (see below) – http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203922804578080684214526670.html

    You make the argument that the cause of liberty would be better served if a people refused allegiance to an institution that has, for one or many reasons, become illegitimate.

    I think we would agree, lip service to Constitutional principle we have seen plenty of – but where a people’s treasure is, there will their heart be also. People, in short, vote with their dollars.

    Would you argue that there should come a point at which those, who in accordance with their own conscience, should refuse to pay all or part of their taxes to an institution whom they believe is corrupt and illegitimate?

    – Alan M. Taylor

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