I think it’s important to remember that God has not sanctioned any one “system” of education, but he has sanctioned stewardship over one’s family.

In our day the church’s official position is neutrality with respect to public, private, or home schools. However, isn’t it interesting that latter day prophets have not always been so neutral on the subject of education for children? For example, Wilford Woodruff said in 1888:

“we should have schools where the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants can be used as text-books, and where the principles of our religion may form a part of the teaching of our schools.”

“These [the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants]… should be their chief text books”

John Taylor said:

“We do not want men or women to teach the children of Latter-day Saints who are not Latter-day Saints themselves. Hear it you Elders of Israel, and you school-trustees! We want none of these things. Let others who fear not God take their course; but it is for us to train our children up in the fear of God. God will hold us responsible for this trust. Hear it, you Elders of Israel and you fathers and you mothers!” (Journal of Discourses 20:179)

What if someone today wanted to follow the advice of these prophets? (To my knowledge, their comments have never been retracted or superseded) Public schools certainly wouldn’t fit the criteria and how many LDS private schools are there? Not many that I know of. It would seem that the only way for most LDS parents to follow this counsel would be to homeschool.

Whoever reads this, please do not misinterpret my comments. I am not saying that God, or the church, expects everyone to homeschool. I am not saying that He is even holding us responsible for following counsel given over 100 years ago — I do not profess to know these things. What I am saying is, let’s be realistic and honest about our choices. The only way for most people to actually follow this counsel (should they desire to) is to take the responsibility of educating their children upon themselves.

Maybe I am an idealist, but I want the best for my children, regardless of what society has to offer at any given time.

I think it’s important to remember that God has not sanctioned any one “system” of education, but he has sanctioned stewardship over one’s family.

With that in mind, I think it’s important that we all respect one another’s choices that we make for our families. Without a doubt, we have our children’s best interest in mind. When we feel impressed to follow another path, even if it is the road less traveled, we should follow it.

My children were in public school and after much deliberation (because, believe me, no one makes a decision to homeschool without serious contemplation and, in my case, prayer), we chose to homeschool in spite of all the potential ridicule we would receive from friends and family.

After 3 years, and seeing my children flourish, I know I’ve made the right decision. Now, most of those friends and family who were once critical are singing to a different tune. A lot of their concerns and misconceptions were put to rest.

One last thought, I find that home schoolers and public schoolers, alike, can be very narrow minded. Children can flourish in both environments; it takes perseverance on the part of the parents and the child’s desire for an education to make that happen. If we work to help them develop a desire for learning, we are setting them up for success.

After reviewing your 9 suggestions, I found much of what you indicated was accurate, and insightful. Since you do believe the system, as it now stands, is in need of improvement, it would be my feeling that it should be remembered that the system did not get to where it is today by accident. Your first suggestion clearly shows that you recognize the centralized theme of control, and the bureaucratic involvement.

As you well know the concept of centralized control is the main consideration of communistic socialization. You are also certainly aware that free thought cannot exist in an environment devoid of self-expression.

The concept of decentralization is precisely what is needed, and the bureaucracy involvement is absolutely counterproductive, and more importantly, unnecessary. Constitutionally speaking, restoring the structure back to the “bottom-to-top” vision espoused by the Framers is what is needed. In fact, I believe you indicated in your 3rd. point that parental involvement should be a part of the process, and that is certainly true. Parental, and family involvement is key to successful progress in any area we might consider.

When considering how to look at the structure you envision, it may be helpful to note how the Lord has organized His Church. While His Word is the foundation. the first building block is the family. By the time your structure reaches the Federal level, their should be little, if anything, needed of them except protection from unwanted, and unwarranted intrusion.

Your second idea is based upon payment for services rendered. Once again we find the system has been constructed by utilizing too much dead weight material, and overlapping bureaucratic imposition. Once again considering the organization the Lord has provided for His Church seems appropriate.

Teachers should receive what they deserve based upon the typical considerations utilized in any business. Tenure is not, in my estimation, the most important factor to be considered. While product knowledge is important, sales presentation is critical. You indicated, I believe, that teaching is your passion, and profession. That is certainly admirable, and noble, and I believe you live up to your own self-expectations. However, the administrative structure which includes union involvement only tends to overburden, and distract the teacher. Unless, and until the dead weight at the top is removed, I am afraid teaching in the so-called public educational system will collapse, and the teacher will only be required to carry more, and more excess baggage for which he or she is not adequately compensated.

A good teacher who has the characteristics you possess is worth all we can give them if the desired result is being realized. However, a so-called teacher who is only going through the motions of instructing her students, and is in reality more loyal to the school board, and the teacher’s unions should be summarily shown the door leading from the school, and toward the unemployment line.

It is getting close to the time when I will be departing for the Lord’s classroom so I’ll leave item #4 until later. I will try to be patient, and consider these comments carefully, but I am afraid I perceive that you are departing somewhat from your previous logical approach. Hopefully I’ll gain further insight from the Holy Ghost before I return this afternoon.

First of all, I am 60 years old, and I presume most of my brothers, and sisters participating in this conversation are of the 20 something demographic. I am a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and was baptized over 36 years ago. I further presume that most, if not all, of the other participants are members of the Church too.

I am not, in any way, an adherent to the mindless “political correctness,” faith many are currently promoting, and I am not a fan of “multiculturalism” as it is being defined by those who are likely to be found in the aforementioned camp. I am not a debater, and am quite opinionated. All posts I submit on this site, and others are comprised of pure opinion, and some facts, and quotes which I try to declare.

My computer skills are, at best, deplorable. I am neither a “speed” typist nor a “speed” reader. All of the skills, and talents I do possess, such as they are, came from God, and/or are basically self-taught. I have utilized a computer for over 9 years, and only recently became aware of the simplistic usage of “enter” to separate my paragraphs, and there are, I am certain, times when I have done so in the wrong place.

While there are many past, and present Prophets, Seers, and Revelators whom I love, and admire immensely, I am particularly fond of President Benson, President McKay, and Elders Maxwell, and McConkie. One of my most revered church members who was not called to a position in leadership was W. Cleon Skousen. The vast majority of what I know today concerning the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the foundational principles of the inspired, and blessed Framer’s Constitution of the United States of America came from a study of their works, and many others, and I apologize for nothing I adhere to which can be attributed to them. I also rely upon the scriptures, prayer, and the Holy Ghost to enlighten me every day.

I love our Savior Jesus Christ, and The original Framer’s Constitution more than life itself, and I will defend them whatever the cost, or sacrifice may be. I have no tolerance whatsoever for those who profess to being Patriotic Americans who persist in deriding the noble character of the United States, and her benevolent Christian founding. I also have little respect for anyone who attempts to reason that the Constitution is a “living” document which needs to be changed, and altered to reflect the image of the rest of the world, and the worldly.

I recognize that I am flawed in many ways, but I reserve the right to make those proclamations of myself without interference, or corrective measures taken by another who is convinced I am more flawed than he perceives himself to be. I know, and testify that Christ will judge us all as individuals, and He will use His perfect knowledge to render His decision. He will likewise not seek the opinion of any of us in regard to the character, or progress made by another.

It is my heartfelt opinion that we are currently experiencing many problems in all areas of our lives both as individuals, and as a nation because we were not obedient to Christ’s words through His Prophets in the past, and we are not obedient for the most part now. We have become so blind to our worldly self-interests that we believe there is no reason to be concerned about the manner in which our freedoms have actually been usurped. We allow the media to define our position on many important, and critical issues without holding them accountable for being truthful. The First Amendment does not give them license to misrepresent the true facts. They do not represent the American people, and they do not have a mandate to do so other than that which they have ascribed to themselves.

Apparently it is impossible for me to stay on topic so I’ll close by saying that I love all of my brothers, and sisters without exception who frequent this site, and I applaud Connor for one of the most professional looking, and well administered sites I have ever had the pleasure to visit. I will return to the topic later when I have fully considered just how to respond to my friend Jeff in a civil, respectful, and loving manner.

I have to wonder, though, in practice, Connor, if we really end up seeing things pretty similarly in most cases. ???

I will say that sure, a policy or whatever doesn’t have to be repeated to have some weight. But I hold pretty tightly to that whole repetition thing as being a really good guide about to what we should be “rivet[ing] our attention”

I personally don’t feel the need for formal renunciation of things past to feel that things not made present by current leaders’ repetition of them don’t require much from me. [If you think of something that would make me change my mind, please share, because this is my perspective now but I'm open to your thoughts if you think I'm misguided. :)] Your line of thinking makes me think that every doctrine, policy and practice that was ever mentioned would have to be reviewed with a fine-tooth comb by our leaders. (Or for that matter, that would mean, to me, that we would all have to spend our lives trying to catch up on what past leaders say as well as what current leaders say. Seems very unreasonable to expect from every member in my mind.) What our leaders choose to focus on by default, IMO, tells me what is on the front burner. (I know there are different points of view on this.)

A last general comment: I’m also uncomfortable with any approach that places members without access to technology and/or church archivey material at some spiritual disadvantage. I’m simple-minded enough to think that the scriptures, current curriculum (which brings important teachings from past prophets to our attention) and church magazines, along with the Spirit, are enough to keep all of us in the right way.

(I have other thoughts re: the specific topic of education, but this is already too long. Maybe in another comment….)

We are not bound to follow counsel given 100 years ago, or even 30 years ago if it hasn’t been repeated into our day.

I disagree with this. I think we’re only absolved of following previous counsel if it has been refuted, superceded, or otherwise nullified by current prophetic authority.

This line of thinking would entail the need to continually repeat every doctrine, policy, and practice over and over and over again. Granted, there is a lot of repetition in the gospel. However, I think that the fact that a certain policy hasn’t been mentioned recently doesn’t preclude it from being authoritative. I feel that only when a doctrine or practice has been changed by the current Prophet do we disregard the previous one.

Am I misguided in that opinion?

This is not to say that I am blind to the flaws of public school. But I don’t think we can make this into a spiritual debate about right or wrong.

I would hope the Spirit would also guide people who are willing and able to make improvements in the systems that exist, because clearly they are needed.

I’m only going to respond to two parts of your post since the rest was just an attack on me, which doesn’t really merit a response.

First, I’m glad that you don’t think that all other areas of learning are bad, which is what i was seeking to understand with my initial comment. That’s why I phrased it as a question:

Does this mean that you believe that we shouldn’t seek out any knowledge that isn’t the word of Christ? No math, no English, no science, no history, because it’s not the inspired word of God?

I apologize if my tone gave offense; that wasn’t my intention.

Second, the main point of my so-called “diatribe” was two fold: 1- This is a thread about education, not socialism, and I didn’t think that the “socialism is evil” argument held much weight. Also, it doesn’t offer practical solutions to the problems of modern education, which is what I had tried to do along with every other poster on this thread. Again, I didn’t mean to give offense; however, I was frustrated by the turn that the discussion took, and I was hoping to bring it back to a more practical realm.

As for the rest of your post, obsequious condescension is a poor way to make an argument. I never called you uneducated, stupid, or anything of the sort. I expressed concern for the direction the discussion turned, and I corrected a glaring factual error that I thought was fairly detrimental to your claims of study and research. That’s all.

Finally, I’d like to ask you a couple of questions:

1- When did the words of a “prophet in training” become the words of a prophet? And, does that mean that anything written by a prophet at any point in his life is the word of God?

2- What do you propose that we do about education to make it better? What can you add to the solutions that I propose above, which for the most part are anti-socialist and practical?

3- I’ve asked this question of Connor before, but I’ll ask you as well. Can you cite a post-Cold War prophet that has condemned socialism in a similar manner as President Benson (Actually, Elder Benson since the majority of his anti-socialist stuff was before he was prophet. We could call him Secretary Benson as well since he was Eisenhower’s Secretary of Agriculture)? The point is that these statements sound like products of the time to me, and since they haven’t been repeated by prophets since the Cold War, I have to wonder how truly important they are.

Overall, Michael, I’d really just like to talk about education. That’s my profession and my passion. I’d like to see education fixed, so our great country will stop falling behind the world. That’s why I’d much rather discuss practical solutions and not theoretical ramblings about socialism. I hope I’ve been polite enough for you (and not too “teacher(ly)”) :).

The book is Family Matters, by David Guterson. Just add it to your list and thank me later.

Jeff, I strongly suggest you consider pursuing a second career in the field of journalism as you demonstrate a profound propensity toward the fine art of word manipulation, and conveniently crafting a believable story-line based upon retrievable relevant data mixed with a portion of arrogant faultfinding, and self-righteous denunciation of the opinions of others who, through your eyes, do not merit any consideration whatsoever for the attempt they have made to enlighten others concerning the possibility that it is not as important to be concerned with where a child is being taught, but rather, what is being taught, and by whom. While I am certain your efforts, within your sphere of understanding are, to you at least, admirable, and deserving of thoughtful consideration, you fail to inspire me due to your glaring omission of mentioning any of the potentially redeeming points which may have been intended.

While I am of the opinion that teaching is one of the grandest, and noblest forms of service one could choose to perform during his eternal sojourn upon this fallen sphere, I also believe it is critically important to encourage those who are the recipients of the educational process to understand that what they are being taught may not make them, otherwise, more intelligent.

I am certain Jeff would agree that I am neither educated nor intelligent, and his assumption would be irrefutably accurate as I am woefully lacking in both areas. Apparently my comments were viewed by Jeff as being without authoritative relevance or conventional understanding of the modern, progressive method of indoctrination found in the philosophical realm of so-called higher learning.

I would certainly never attempt to engage Jeff in a contest of scriptural understanding as he would undoubtedly find my knowledge in that area laughable. He would be deserving of my respect for recognizing that unfortunate fact.

Now that I have finally grown weary of creating a desperate need to repent for my less than Christian remarks toward Jeff, and his thoughtless remarks, I shall work relentlessly in an effort to remove this gigantic mote from my eye. I believe it will also be required of me to repent for not being more compassionate toward those who fail to recognize just how much the adversary has been able to bring about his evil plan to deceive those who profess to being in possession of the truth. I pray Heavenly Father will forgive us all for our blatant disregard for the words spoken by the prophets in the past including those who made thought provoking, and irrefutable statements concerning the path upon which we are treading in the United States of America toward satanic world socialism especially when they were eventually called to receive the mantle of prophecy.

I shall now disengage myself from this unfortunate, albeit necessary departure from my usual rant by leaving you all with this sage advice extracted from a talk given by “Prophet in training,” Elder Ezra Taft Benson. While it was delivered on a Sunday morning session of conference in 1962, the implications are even more ominous today.

“Lenin said, “The soundest strategy in war is to postpone operations until the moral disintegration of the enemy renders the mortal blow possible and easy.”

Elder Benson went on to say while quoting from comments made by the Indianapolis Star; “It is our own ignorance–ignorance of our own history and our heritage of liberty that threatens us. It is our ignorance of the true nature of our enemy, socialistic communism, that threatens us….Our own lack of faith in freedom and ourselves, our own lack of confidence in the greatness of America and all that she stands for, morally and materially, is what puts her in mortal danger.”

“I am fed up with the educationists and pseudo-scientists who have underrated our potential as a people….I am tired of seeing America debased and low-rated in the eyes of foreigners. I am genuinely disturbed that to idealistic youth in many countries the fraud of Communism appears synonymous with morality, while we, the chief repository of real freedom, are regarded as being in the last stages of decay.”

Finally, Jeff if you truly believe that I do not see merit in the other realms of educational discipline, i.e., math, science, English, and history, I certainly regret leaving you with that erroneous conclusion. I have a profound love for obtaining as much pure knowledge as is available, but it does take time to separate the useless opinions, and philosophical conjecture from the foundational principles of the teachings of Christ.

It is now time for me to submit my clumsy, and undoubtedly inept collection of opinion, fact, and worldly notion to Jeff for his insightful, yet teacher(ly) critique. I shall probably receive a failing grade, but secretly hope for an incomplete. Thankfully I will have an eternity to measure up to the high standards Jeff has imposed upon me.

“I believe we must accept only the words of Christ as being pure knowledge. Anything more or less is purely unworthy of our time.”

Does this mean that you believe that we shouldn’t seek out any knowledge that isn’t the word of Christ? No math, no English, no science, no history, because it’s not the inspired word of God? If that’s the case, please point to a church leader who has said this or a passage of scripture that says this or something because it sounds ridiculous. The scriptures say to seek out the best books of knowledge, not to hide under a rock and only study the word of God. Are you serious?

BTW, The Communist Manifesto was published in 1848 not 1958. Since you were 110 years off of its publication date, I have a hard time believing that you’ve completed “a further study of the content of this document.” But, I might be wrong.

Furthermore, 90% of your comment has nothing to do with anything that has been posted here. It’s “socialism is evil because President Benson said so (before he was prophet, btw).” Not every topic needs to boil down to that argument. Let’s talk about education, not socialism, since that’s what the thread is about.

In order for Christ to create things He had to develop knowledge. He also had to receive that knowledge from a source of infinite wisdom greater than His own. That knowledge had to be undefiled, and of absolute truth. The source of that kind of knowledge could only come from His Father. That being said, I believe we must accept only the words of Christ as being pure knowledge. Anything more or less is purely unworthy of our time.

About 2 &1/2 years ago, I read an article in Meridian Magazine entitled “Education As the Early Prophets Saw It” by Darla Isackson. In the article she referenced a book by John D. Monnett (LDS Archive Publishers, Heber, Utah 1998). This book was entitled “Revealed Educational Principles & the Public Schools.” I strongly recommend this article. I believe it may be archived at http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040604educationprint.html. I was absolutely depressed after reading how the Saints after arriving in Utah had eventually rejected the Church educational system in favor of FREE public education. I believe you will find this information very troubling, and you will also have a better understanding of how we arrived at the dire situation with which we are faced at this time.

At some point in time Adolf Hitler declared; “He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future!”

The following information was gleaned from Faith Christian Ministries, and my own beliefs are in concert with their words: “An elitist coterie of America’s tax-exempt foundations has designed and initiated every wave of educational reform since John Dewey and his progressive education. The real power behind the reform movement is raking in the cash, tax free, and using that tax-free income to finance the destruction of our educational system. The goal of each and every reform movement has been the same–to eliminate knowledge in the classroom and to pilot the United States toward a one-world, socialist government.” The information I just noted, and approximately 9 more pages can be found at http://www.faithchristianmin.org/articles/teb.htm. I highly recommend that you do a thorough investigation of their findings.

“Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.”

Joseph Story

On several occasions I have referenced a web site called http://inspiredconstitution.org. There are to be found there many talks, and quotes given by several of the Prophets in the 50′s, 60′s, and 70′s. President Benson delivered many of them, and he, on many occasions, along with others of that time, warned us about the “creeping socialism” which was overtaking every aspect of our lives. Many people in America seem to believe that the fall of the Soviet Union meant the demise of communism. Anyone who follows that line of reasoning is destined to be awakened rudely.

I believe it was around 1958 when the “Communist Manifesto” was made public. I recommend a further study of the content of this document.

The educational system in the United States whether it is public, charter or home still has the hand of government extended out to make certain the people do not disrupt the pattern of indoctrination set forth.

We the people are complicit in our own destruction when we do not demand that our children be taught the principles of truth, and the founding principles of the Framers Constitution of the United States of America. Anything short of this is suspect, and will lead to wrong-thinking, and socialistic behavior which can be likened to the plan of the adversary to lead us down to hell by flattery, and deception.

What are the odds that you and I would agree completely on something? Satan better buy some snow boots and start expecting frosty weather. :)

I’ll have more on education later. I’m swamped with the end of quarter grading, but I’ll link back to this post for a more lengthy reply on my blog once things settle down.

Cheers.

The only real point I care to make is that homeschooling is a viable option, and that it won’t necessarily turn your kids into mutants. :) Whether it’s the right thing for your family is another question, one that deserves a lot of prayer and thought.

Again, as Michelle said, there’s no official Church position on this (and with good reason). I prefer homeschooling, of course, but I don’t think it’s the answer for everyone, because if it were, the prophet probably would have said something about it. :)

Thanks to all who have shared their interesting ideas about the options out there, btw. It’s nice that there are options for those who feel public school isn’t the right thing. But I don’t think it’s right to completely discount public school as an option. (Spoken, yes like a mom with kids in public school? Yup. :) And they are loving it for now, so for now it’s working for us…and we do our own learning-at-home stuff too (more informally than formally). They’re doing great so far. We’ll see if this stays our option as they grow. I do appreciate knowing what options are out there!)

We have her in the Head Start pre-school at a public elementary school here in Seattle, and she’s done very well there, but we worried about next year. She won’t be 5 in time to automatically go to kindergarten, and while we’re confident she could probably get into kindergarten early, it wouldn’t be so beneficial for her. At the same time, she’ll likely be bored to death next year at the same preschool, which entails problems also. So we started looking into private schools.

Much closer to home than her current school, we found University Child Development School. So we took a tour.

Whoa. I was blown away. The teachers, the specialists, the facilities, but above all the philosophy and their approach to curriculum. It was awesome.

Naturally if we qualify for Head Start we cannot afford a private school (the tuition is more than I made last year), but it turns out the average student at UCDS receives a 56% scholarship! So we’re applying and we’ll see what happens.